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Latest Comments

If you're looking for the latest comments and voting for the Song Project, Album Project and Revisited Projected Rankings, check out the Project Comments page.

About the 2024 Inductees, ChrisD wrote:
  @Willie:

So I guess my question is larger than this forum. Because I see the contradictions in your logic as much as I did in Chris Molanphy's and Roy Trakin's. I've been a Mariah fan for many years, more so on the mid-to-high range considering how violently off the scale committed many of her fans can be (I'll watch a YouTube interview from time to time if the algorithm suggests, but still not entirely apprised of her deeper lore) and even I know that straight old white men have always had a problem with her. And figuring out why is a fun sociocultural exercise.

The mainstream argument barely holds in isolated terms, but then in relative terms it shatters, especially when the benchmark is Madonna or Whitney. Are they too not "mainstream"? Being at the centre top of the pop culture attention span has always been Madonna's target. Whitney stayed in MOR AC much longer from her first to last album.

The "reversal" of Mariah's reputation is entirely credited to the changing demographics of music critics in a poptimist era while the Mariah generation is still tainted by those early reviews. Ariana Grande is someone who has benefit from this change, for example, her last album has a higher metacritic score than any Mariah album. Listening to that Ariana album just reinforces how much of a progeny she is of the very same sound Mariah was criticized for.

Thinking about generational bias I think brings me a little closer to a satisfying answer. Whitney and Janet snuck in just in time before the rock critical establishment evolved into the crabby old men's club hardened with the "music was better in my day" perspective; which is ironically the same way the Sinatra generation treated rock. She's considered a peer of the Reagan era superstars because her popularity allowed her to sit at that same table, in fact she steamrolled right past a few of them within a few short years, even though she's much younger and debuted much later. Musically she's closer to what the Aaliyah and Brandy generation were doing. But again, there are traits of her having peddled in both previous and newer musical outputs.

Also I guess that even lay people are having trouble interpreting her consistently because why do I see some proselytizing her as a Christmas one hit wonder, when she literally has had more hits than any other solo artist in history lol. Just the same there are spokespeople for collective memory arbitrating classics and non classics, when her granular catalogue has arguably done better through the evolving phases of the music industry, from physical to digital to streaming.

Ex: number of tracks with 100 million+ streams on Spotify:
Madonna: 14
Whitney: 12
Janet: 4
Mariah: 24 (20 are non-Christmas related for what it's worth)
Sunday, 04/28/2024 @ 04:54am
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About the 2024 Inductees, willie wrote:
  richie,

Could you explain more? I do not understand what you mean sorry.
Sunday, 04/28/2024 @ 04:52am
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About the 2024 Inductees, willie wrote:
  Honestly speaking, Sinead is way less influential than Jimi Hendrix, Frank Zappa, Lou Reed, Janis Joplin, Nina Simone, Grateful Dead, Roxy Music, T. Rex, Patti Smith, Kate Bush... She is definitely on a lower level than these acts.
Sunday, 04/28/2024 @ 04:52am
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About the 2024 Inductees, willie wrote:
  What about the Monkees? If it is possible that this band will be nominated and inducted in the next year.

After foreigner and peter frampton, the monkees could be the next, who was blacklisted in Jann Wenner era.
Sunday, 04/28/2024 @ 04:42am
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About the 2024 Inductees, Timothy Pernell wrote:
  Mat r,

I can see why he would think that. Some of Mariah's songs do give off that impression (bubblegum pop). Some people even thought she regressed in her sound at a certain point to keep up with the younger acts in the industry. Like she added choreography to her act in the late 90s and we know that was not how she started out.

Plus the "plastic" allegations definitely followed her like a virus. She never quite beat those allegations though I don't think she's plastic per se. But I can see why that voter may feel the way he do and why he felt MJB was more "authentic".

That may not have been everyone's belief about Mariah but I think the majority do think this. The Christmas song being popular also went against her in the fact, like the dude in the chat pointed out, no other hit she had was more important than that one and if it's an opinion shared by those who voted Mary and Cher over her, then OUCH.

That said, I still think she has a chance entering but we're just gonna have to wait and see if they do.
Sunday, 04/28/2024 @ 02:01am
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About the 2024 Inductees, Elle Dee wrote:
  mat r

On Sinead - Tell that old white rock guy that if Sinead doesn't deserve to get in because of having one major hit song in America, then Jimi Hendrix, Frank Zappa, Lou Reed, Janis Joplin, Nina Simone, Grateful Dead, Roxy Music, T. Rex, Patti Smith, Kate Bush don't deserve to get in because they all qualify as "one-hit wonders" in America.

Obviously, I don't view them as one-hit wonders, especially Nina, Kate, Roxy, and Rex. They're too important to be labeled as one-hit wonders. Same goes with Sinead. I'm sick and tired of the lame, bs contradictory from idiots who would try to find ridiculous reasons why Sinead shouldn't be in the hall. If The Cranberries, Sarah McLachlan, Alanis, and Fiona get inducted one day, it would be stupid to leave Sinead out because she's a major influence to them.
Sunday, 04/28/2024 @ 00:40am
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About the 2024 Inductees, Elle Dee wrote:
  mat r

On Sinead - Tell that white rock guy that if Sinead doesn't deserve to get in because of having one major hit song in America, then Jimi Hendrix, Frank Zappa, Lou Reed, Janis Joplin, Nina Simone, Grateful Dead, Roxy Music, T. Rex, Patti Smith, Kate Bush don't deserve to get in because they all qualify as "one-hit wonders" in America.

Obviously, I don't view them as one-hit wonders, especially Nina, Kate, Roxy, and Rex. They're too important to be labeled as one-hit wonders. Same goes with Sinead. I'm sick and tired of the lame, bs contradictory from idiots who would try to find ridiculous reasons why Sinead shouldn't be in the hall. If Alanis and Fiona get inducted one day, it would be stupid to leave Sinead out because she's a major influence to them.
Sunday, 04/28/2024 @ 00:36am
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About the 2024 Inductees, willie wrote:
  richie,

Could you explain more? I do not understand what you mean sorry.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 23:55pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  willie,

It was from the guy that I not only unfollowed, but also ignored on the Steve Hoffman forums as well.

What do you think?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 23:32pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  willie,

It was the guy that I not only unfollowed but also ignored on the Steve Hoffman forums as well.

What do you think?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 23:22pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, willie wrote:
  read on steve hoffman forum

Someone said Mariah Carey personally rejected the award in order to giving Mary J Blige full light.

Is that true?
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 23:17pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, willie wrote:
  No matter how Mariah Carey's fans defend her, it doesn't change the perception that many voters have of her. She is not as respected as her fans might think. Moreover, many of her so-called contributions, such as integrating hip-hop elements, are viewed as trends that only became popular in recent years. Many voters might not understand the recent "reversal" in Mariah's reputation, similar to their confusion over why Taylor Swift consistently receives positive reviews. Mariah Carey herself is considered more mainstream and not particularly innovative or artistically strong, so she does not receive the level of respect her fans might expect. Indeed, in the eyes of many voters, she may align more with Celine Dion rather than with artists like Madonna or Whitney Houston. Additionally, Mariah has influenced younger, more mainstream artists, whereas Mary J. Blige has had a greater impact on more "cool" musicians.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 22:55pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Jostie wrote:
  A really sad, sad class. Wow, let anybody in.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 22:25pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Mat r wrote:
  Follower

I've mentioned him before. Won't name him but he's an old white rock musician (not a singer) who was inducted ages ago. He gives his ballot away to family members to fill in for him. I think he lives in New York but he's possibly in Newark.

I talked with him last year and he.just wants ELP and Tommy James nominated (but now seems to really want Carmine Appice and Randy Bachman to get in also).

I texted him in Thursday and he said we could talk and we talked a bit about the class.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 22:05pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Follower wrote:
  Mat r,

Who is this person?
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 21:55pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Mat r wrote:
  To elaborate on the inductee thoughts about Mariah from the chat

- I don't think he sees her as AC or RnB. He seems to see her as bubblegum pop.

- he singled out "all I want for Christmas" as the first song he thinks of when he hears her name and it's annoying.

- he sees Beyonce and Britney as similar acts and also annoying. Sees gaga as different more in line with Madonna, doesn't know taylor that well

- doesn't think any of her hits matter aside from the Christmas one

- doesn't think she's as glamourous/stylish as cher, Mary J, and sade. Think Mariah looks like plastic

Hope that's helpful
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 21:49pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  ChrisD,

Which acts do you think have the biggest beneficiary of the acts getting in this year for 2024 (Mary J. Blige, Cher, Dave Matthews Band, Foreigner, Peter Frampton, Kool & The Gang, Ozzy Osbourne, A Tribe Called Quest, Jimmy Buffett, MC5, Dionne Warwick, Alexis Korner, John Mayall and Big Mama Thornton) next year for 2025?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 21:32pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, ChrisD wrote:
  @Timothy Pernell:

Well there's some cognitive dissonance there but most of your points circle back to my observation that Chris Molanphy and the like are systematically weighing one person's weakness (ie. AC ballads that make up one third of her total career) against all other women's strengths, and even giving some the benefit of the doubt. For all those who see "girl boss hip hop Mary J Blige", there's also the fact that she's chronically off key with limited range; "feminist rocker Sinead" is a time-stamped one hit wonder; "diva with underrated adventurous catalogue Cher" is an historical trend hopper with no real musicianship; "seductive smooth Sade" is musically limited to Quiet Storm which is just black AC.

Musically we're probably beyond deliberation on whether she's good or bad. The talent is there, the impact is there. They see it, but they choose to ignore it, and my question was "why". THAT is what I find most fascinating about the Mariah situation. Because there are predecessors who have had less qualifiers (less talent, musical impact, career longevity, commercial success) who haven't faced a similar challenge. And all roads are pointing to successors who've benefit from the Mariah sonic legacy and won't face the same challenge either.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 21:18pm
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About Engelbert Humperdinck, angeline vargas wrote:
  He is very good, humble, talented, people are singing songs that eternal memories for decades, his many concerts are always sold out, at 87 he is still bringing joy to so many people. WHY is he not in the hall of fame? Give him the respect he has earned.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 20:25pm
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About Engelbert Humperdinck, angeline vargas wrote:
  He is very good, humble, talented, people are singing songs that eternal memories for decades, his many concerts are always sold out, at 87 he is still bringing joy to so many people. WHY is he not in the hall of fame?
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 20:24pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  Timothy Pernell,

What are your early predictions for the 2025 nominees and Out of your early predictions for the 2025 nominees, Which ones do you see being inducted (If 8 inductees again)?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 19:43pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Timothy Pernell wrote:
  I kept saying that no one knew what box to put Mariah in: pop diva? R&B artist? Hip-hop adjacent act? Or worse, one of those "annoying AC acts". There are also others who think she fits the Celine box more than the Aretha/Whitney box (odd cause in her early career, they compared her to Whitney a LOT). Someone like Whitney and Madonna were more straightforward entries because their places in history were far more secured (it might've taken a decade for the former but once her name was announced, I think a lot of voters in the Gen X-Boomer side of things easily picked her because they likely own a Whitney album or two or three but won't have a Mariah album). Like Whitney and Aretha have songs that are some of the most beloved anthems of their eras (Respect, I Wanna Dance with Somebody, I Will Always Love You, Natural Woman, etc.) whereas Mariah, despite having a song that's supposed to be beloved (Fantasy) is still mostly known for a holiday song.

There's also the possibility that the other female/female-adjacent nominees produced far more interesting music than Mariah. I mean, you're putting a woman who put out AC ballads like Love Takes Time, Hero and One Sweet Day next to a feminist, "boss girl" hip-hop/R&B act (MJB), a feminist rocker (Sinead), a diva with far more adventurous catalog than she's given credit for (Cher) and a band led by one of the most seductive and smooth R&B divas in the history of the genre (Sade). And then you compare it to a woman whose material was heavily criticized back in the day. If that was the case, she stood no chance.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see if she ever gets another stab at it and if not, then that'll give us the true answer, I guess.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 19:36pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  Mat R,

What are your early predictions for the 2025 nominees and Out of your early predictions for the 2025 nominees, Which ones do you see being inducted (If 8 inductees again)?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 19:05pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, ChrisD wrote:
  @Ralib:

*Long post warning*

Yeah I think we've all ruminated about Mariah here since she was revealed as a nominee. Discourse about her objective influence on the sonic progression of pop music is redundant at this point. Most people would agree that she has a credible argument for being in the top 3 most influential female centrist pop singers of the last quarter century. I guess what most people were shocked by, was the starkly delineated distaste for her in the significant margin of RRHOF voters, that she would end up in the bottom tier of vote getters on this year's ballot. Also, having listened to all the WCATRH Patreon episodes, every single last one of the critic/writer/podcaster type who they interviewed, and who claims the following attributes: white, male, straight, 50+ years (Gen X-Boomer) old, were openly hostile to the idea of voting for her, and were brazen about dissenting from their usual voting criteria just so they wouldn't have to vote for her.

I'm actually kind of baffled by the whole thing, mostly because I haven't found a satisfying answer to it yet. One hypothesis is that Hall voters find her "annoying" for the way she leverages a hyper femme presentation, coquettish sexuality and camp personality that stops shy of girl boss female empowerment, which is the most basic way many of those men are able to perceive feminism. Cher and Mary J Blige are also sexual, which they brandish to break into the boy's club, and it's that "spirit of rock and roll" that make them fluent to the Hall's male voter. If I'm not getting my point across yet, I watched one of Mariah's interviews where she was asked what she would be if she were a man, and she answered, "a drag queen". Ask any of those male voters what their opinion of drag queens are.

There's also the more fundamental issue of people still not being able to compartmentalize her in a way that helps visibilize her strengths. Actually she's always contended with dualities, from the obvious one being race, how she's never been fully nuzzled in either white or black. Generationally, she's ten years too young to be in the musical genius club of MJ, Prince and Madonna, but ten years too old to be in the musical genius club of Beyonce. Musically, people still have trouble interpreting her place in genre, that they didn't know if she was the direct competitor of pop diva Cher, or R&B diva Mary J Blige. Well, she ended up losing to both.

Historically, her place in the industry and treatment from the critical establishment was always pretty fraught, but also not really. She was in an interesting place. They liked her compared to Celine Dion, but hated her compared to Aretha Franklin. They couldn't ignore her objective popularity or her objective talent, but were always willing to dangle the prize just a few inches above her head where she couldn't reach. For example, she has had more Grammy nominations than Madonna, Janet Jackson, Whitney Houston. But she's actually won the least out of them (aside from Janet, who she is tied with). She has had more General Field nominations than all of them, but never won.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 18:13pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Mat r wrote:
  Inductee take from the class. Again he's an old white rock guy. Didn't wanna go on the record or record the chat so forgive me

Voted for inductees

Ozzy - happy Ozzy got in. Voted for him despite not having voted for Sabbath. Thinks Ozzy is an icon of rock

Frapton - not a fan of Frampton, thinks the Alive album isn't all that good. Does think Frampton is good at guitar.

Kool and the gang - thinks they're cheesy but is impressed by how massive celebration is

Foreigner - really happy about this. Thinks mick and Phil are great. Envious of their number of top 10 hits. Didn't get how it took so long. Hopes they play "hot blooded" at the ceremony so there's some old fashion rock n roll on display

Tribe - doesn't know them really grandson pushed him. Heard a few songs on YouTube and thought it was ok for rap.

Other inductees

Cher - didn't vote for her cause he thinks it should have been Sonny and Cher cause the music is better. Says sonny was a massive part of Cher's career and success and also should have been given the honour. Does think cher belongs in.

Mary j Blige - doesn't know her. Is shocked two *rap" acts got in. Listened to a few songs on YouTube after and wasn't big on it but thinks she has style.

Dave Matthews band - like Dave Matthews but does not care for his music. Thinks it's imitation grateful dead. Thinks my morning jacket and hootie are better than dmb and phish.

Other acts he voted for

Oasis - likes that one album but needed to be pushed to vote for them

Sade - loved their 80s work. Hasn't kept up with them but adores smooth operator and no ordinary love. Think Sade has the same vibe as Bryan ferry. Hopes she gets another try next year.

Other acts

Sinead - doesn't think one hit wonders should be in the hall and thinks the photo was one of the most disgusting acts he's ever seen.

Lenny Kravitz - shocked he didn't get in. Thinks Lenny is super cool and that "fly away" is a top song of the 90s.

Mariah Carey - she's talented but annoying. Thinks the Christmas song is bad and hates listening to it every day from October to January.

Categories

Alexis Korner and John mayall - they deserve it

Big Mama Thornton - thinks elvis's hounddog is better and thinks her importance is overstated in recent years but has no issue with her getting in.

Mc5 - communists band that made a few good records

Jimmy Buffett - deserves it

Dionne Warwick - she's so nice. Happy she got in

Eric b and Rakim and Jane's addiction - has no idea who they are. YouTubed both and found Jane's addiction bad and Eric b and Rakim ok.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 17:37pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  Ralib,

What are your early predictions for the 2025 nominees/inductees (If 8 inductees again)?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 15:37pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Ralib wrote:
  What's interesting is that if you look on Ranker.com Mariah is nowhere near close to the top of the list. She's #800 something. I think her popularity far outweighs her musical influence and acclaim within the industry. She has one timeless song (Fantasy) that is lauded by critics and one timeless christmas song. That should be enough to get her in considering someone like Darlene Love is in but the hall doesn't real care much about popularity it's a club and if they don't respect you, you just wont get in, or will have a hard time no matter how popular you are.

I think Mariah will get in eventually unless she continues to be snubbed and the newer generation of voters forgets her outside of her Christmas legacy.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 15:34pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, Follower wrote:
  Who was the voter that gave the ballot to his grandson?
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 14:47pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  Power,

Which acts do you think have the biggest beneficiary of the acts getting in this year for 2024 (Mary J. Blige, Cher, Dave Matthews Band, Foreigner, Peter Frampton, Kool & The Gang, Ozzy Osbourne, A Tribe Called Quest, Jimmy Buffett, MC5, Dionne Warwick, Alexis Korner, John Mayall and Big Mama Thornton) next year for 2025?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 14:42pm
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About Salt N Pepa, power wrote:
  First big female hip hop act

Should be included at some time in the future
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 13:50pm
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About Babyface, power wrote:
  Could and should be inducted either as performer or musical excellence in the future

Too big to be ignored

I hate his music
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 13:49pm
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About Air Supply, power wrote:
  It is no from me
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 13:44pm
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About Air Supply, Belisario Porras wrote:
  It is simply a travesty that Air Supply is not in the RRHOF. This hall has so many other acts that are not even half as successfull or talented and even are from a genre separate of Rock n Roll. Air Supply has the durability, the hits, song writing and singing talent that meets the requirements to be in the Hall. It would be a shame that the people behind the induction realize this only once the members of the band are dead.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 13:41pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, power wrote:
  I really really want Wu-Tang Clan and Outkast to be inducted.

Five snubs I want most:
1. Joy Division/New Order
2. Outkast
3. Iron Maiden
4. Wu Tang Clan
5. Devo
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 13:01pm
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About the 2024 Inductees, richie wrote:
  Mat R,

Which acts do you think have the biggest beneficiary of the acts getting in this year for 2024 (Mary J. Blige, Cher, Dave Matthews Band, Foreigner, Peter Frampton, Kool & The Gang, Ozzy Osbourne, A Tribe Called Quest, Jimmy Buffett, MC5, Dionne Warwick, Alexis Korner, John Mayall and Big Mama Thornton) next year for 2025?.
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 12:48pm
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About Babyface, Regal Tribe wrote:
  Surely, Babyface's Illustrious Career & musical contributions Warrants him a place in the songwriter category. I thought about Missy Elliott's induction, as the first female rap recording artist and her longevity as a modern measure. To Babyface's credit (AzYet, TLC, Toni Braxton, Whitney, Johnny Gill, Dru-Hill, Bobby, Boyz II Men, Pebbles, Karyn White, Sheena Easton, Madonna, Brandy, After 7, Himself, The Deele, The Whispers, The Boys, The Mac Band, Charlie Wilson, Anita Baker, Patti LaBelle, SWV, Mary Jane Blige, Chaka, CeCe Winans, Mariah, Milestone, and so many more...), We question how Missy is i (with a shorter career span) be honored and not Babyface?
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 11:24am
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About the 2024 Inductees, Mat r wrote:
  Will m

Did not mention them. I will say I don't think they ever played together
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 11:16am
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About the 2024 Inductees, Will m wrote:
  Mat r,

Did he mention Vinny or Tim Bogert? This guy must be a huge carmine fan. That'll be a good clue for who he is. I'll look into who he's played with, My best guess is geezer butler (there's no way it's actually Geez). I'll have to think about other Long Island inductees too maybe it's a location thing (there's absolutely zero chance that it's billy Joel or Pat Benatar, and Lou Reed is dead so not them).
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 11:14am
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About the 2024 Inductees, Mat r wrote:
  Will m

He mentioned no band just Carmine. He actually would not shut up about carmine, Randy, ELP, tommy James, (I think) Paul Anka, and most surprisingly Lita ford not being in
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 10:44am
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About the 2024 Inductees, Will m wrote:
  Upon further inspection, neither Appiece was in Whitesnake or rainbow. Idk why I thought this
Saturday, 04/27/2024 @ 10:37am
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