Whitney Houston

Not in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame

Eligible since: 2009 (The 2010 Induction Ceremony)

Previously Considered? Yes  what's this?


Inducted into Rock Hall Projected in 2019 (ranked #230) .


Essential Albums (?)WikipediaAmazon MP3Amazon CD
Whitney Houston (1985)
Whitney (1987)
The Bodyguard: Original Motion Picture Soundtrack (1992)

Essential Songs (?)WikipediaAmazon MP3YouTube
Greatest Love of All (1985)
How Will I Know (1985)
I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me) (1987)
I Will Always Love You (1992)

Whitney Houston @ Wikipedia

Whitney Houston Videos

Will Whitney Houston be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame?
"Musical excellence is the essential qualification for induction."
   

Comments

273 comments so far (post your own)

I'm actually sorta puzzled that this vote is this close. I mean, they're probably gonna induct Madonna this year, right? After that, they can't really keep Whitney out, can they?

Posted by Al on Wednesday, 01.24.07 @ 08:11am


Yes, Al, they can keep Whitney out. Why? First, Whitney is considered R&B more than pop. She has been for the last fifteen years. And her pop stuff sold big, but it's now the stuff of Ann Taylor background music. The music the menopausal set hums along to while buying sensible separates definitely does not rock. The fact that Whitney has been living in the bottom of a crack pipe for the last ten years doesn't help, either.

Madonna is pop/electronic, not R&B. Madonna still sells out huge concerts. Madonna is still an influential force in the industry. Whitney Houston's biggest contribution in the last fifteen years has been the phrase "Crack is wack."

Posted by Andrew on Tuesday, 03.6.07 @ 23:43pm


Whitney Houston deserves a place in the rock and roll hall of fame. She is inarguably one of the greatest singers of all time. Yes, she has had her ups and down in her career but that should not take away from her accomplishments and her talent. In fact Whitney has influenced nearly every male and female R&B singer out today(Mariah, Beyonce,etc.).

Posted by Brian on Sunday, 03.11.07 @ 03:33am


Whitney Houston will get in. Nothing moved music and charts like her debut album.

The Hall is full of people that created something that made an impact I liked Whitney somewhat when I was a kid, but I'm not a raging fan. However, there is no way I can deny the impact she had on radio, MTV, and the kids I hung out with. She was a force.

And it's a damn shame she is where she is today. (Although rough burnout is also a repeating theme of artists in the Hall).

Posted by Moni3 on Saturday, 05.5.07 @ 20:08pm


Everyone has ups and downs in their lives. That should have nothing to do with being recognized by the Hall.

In my book, she is inarguably the greatest female vocalist of all time -- and I've taken Aretha, Barbra, Mariah, Billie & all others into consideration. Nobody else has her charisma as a vocalist, and she's influenced nearly every female pop & R&B vocalist to follow her path, including Mariah, Beyonce & Christina.

She totally deserves it.

Posted by Michael H. on Friday, 06.8.07 @ 22:35pm


Sorry, Michael H, but all of your comments ignore lasting influence on rock has a whole. None of these artists has done anything that hasn't been done before, and they'll all have little to no impact on those making quality music now and two decades from now. They're great singers that have a catalog of popular, but horrifically dated pop songs. Nothing more.

Posted by Casper on Saturday, 06.9.07 @ 01:54am


Casper, Whitney Houston was the premier ballad diva of the 1980s, and in the '90s, every record label felt pressure to get a female artist that was similar to her to compete with her, hence stars like Mariah Carey, Celine Dion, Tamia, Toni Braxton & Deborah Cox.

Whitney's influence has been long-lasting, regardless of what her career looks like now. The hall also considers an artist's "significance." Whitney Houston is certainly one of the most significant recording artists -- male, female or group -- of all pop, rock and R&B history.

For a female artist, on Mariah Carey and Madonna's record sales top hers. Along with Mariah, Madonna & Celine, Whitney is one of the top-selling female recording stars in music history.

Please remember one word: significance. Some
of the bands that some of you guys think should be in have been far from significant and making a lasting impression on music as a whole like Whitney has.

Significance is the key word. At some point in music history, women like Whitney, Janet, Britney, Beyonce & Mariah (women that I've made comments about on this site) have been significant and have made their marks in music history.

Posted by Michael H. on Saturday, 06.9.07 @ 09:25am


...drug use not withstanding, it is virtually IMPOSSIBLE to ignore the impact that Whitney Houston has had on the world of music.

She was one of the top-selling artists (male or female) of the 80's and 90's, and has influenced the work of countless performers (Christina, Britney, Aaliyah, Mya, Beyonce', etc.), not to mention the musical dynasty from which she is descended.

Posted by Dr. DiRossi on Sunday, 09.2.07 @ 04:18am


I guess. She is easily the most influential singer of her generation. Her debut album is revered and set a template for others to follow. She's a great performer. She's got soul. But her catalog is kind of lacking. If she makes a successful, soulful and critically acclaimed comeback, then she deserves it. If she makes a successful and commercial comeback (like Mariah), then no.

Posted by JRKing on Friday, 09.21.07 @ 17:35pm


She will get in hands down. Whitney is the greatest singer of her generation and perhaps the greatest female singer of all time. Yes, it is true she does not have a catalog of 50 or more albums, but her impact on music is undeniable. Drug use aside, I think she definetly desrves a place in the hall.

Posted by TheGenius on Sunday, 01.6.08 @ 18:09pm


Did Whitney write her own songs? I agree Madonna's induction helps Whitney's chances, but I'm not sure she has a good songwriting reputation.

Maybe her comeback album with Clive will prime the pump for 2010.

Posted by c.w. on Wednesday, 01.30.08 @ 07:54am


There is virtually no way that anyone will ever deny access into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame for Whitney Houston. Her influence and talent are undeniable.

Posted by Klak on Tuesday, 03.11.08 @ 08:32am


If you seriously believe that they would keep her out, your crazy. She is the only artist(single or group) of all time to sell 7 #1 hits. She has had the best selling single of all time(I will always love you). Not to mention she is the first female artist to ever debut an album at #1 and she did it twice on POP and R&B charts. We won't go into all the awards. They have to let her in.

Posted by Antoine Smith on Thursday, 03.20.08 @ 15:05pm


I'll say it 5000 times and I'll say it again:

Sales do not give any indication of an artists influence because it is impossible to assume that every one of those people who bought the records is a musician.

Still, I'm not even sure that I should have assumed that you care about influence.

Posted by Liam on Thursday, 03.20.08 @ 15:17pm


Sales and Chart accomplishments DOES NOT equate significance. Having said that, I think she should be inducted. Her impact is undeniable. Her success during the 80s (a very white-male dominated era) paved the way for other black women to break into mainstream. And her influence is all over today's singers. She set a new standard for singing. And I think the drug use actually HELPS her chances. Going through hell and coming back (if she does) adds credibility and is respected.

Posted by David on Wednesday, 03.26.08 @ 15:32pm


This one's a toss-up. Not really sure, I'm guessing no. If they induct Janet Jackson (another toss-up), I'd say Whitney's chances would improve upon that.

Posted by Philip on Tuesday, 07.15.08 @ 13:17pm


I apologize ahead of time for what sounds like a lame comment but Whitney Houston is like the vacuum cleaner. She sucks.

Posted by Screws Off on Saturday, 07.26.08 @ 21:55pm


Why not? Whitney's voice has been levelled to Aretha (an inductee), so why can't she be included? She has left her own legacy, and along with Mariah Carey, she transformed music. Hell, if a modest talent (but outstandingly marketed) artist like Madonna can be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame, Whitney sure can!

Posted by Chris on Thursday, 08.14.08 @ 13:08pm


Significance? Without whitney houston, there would be no mariah carey, celiene dion, toni braxton, brandy, monica, beyonce, christina aguilera,britney spears,leona lewis, rihanna....etc. Significance at some point equates to influence, and this woman has influenced a generation of soul/popular singer.She is the originator of mainstream pop/r&b.

Posted by dave on Monday, 09.8.08 @ 11:27am


Ahh, you are SO incorrect, Dave!

You've got to look much further back to find the influences to the female artists you mentioned. Whitney Houston did not infleunce said artists. It's much more likely that Joan Baez, Melanie, Janis Ian and Janis Joplin did (just to name a few of the earlier and truly influential female artists)!

Whitney is a great performer, but she is NOT the influence you credit her for.

Tom

Posted by Tom on Monday, 09.8.08 @ 11:56am


Actually i am very correct, those singers were influential to a certain sect of singers, but when you talk about bringing a gospel inspired soul singing to a popular mainstream COMMERCIAL audience,whitney houston was unparalled at the time of her 15 million selling debute album release (which is probably as much as those artist you mentioned sold conglomerately)she is the only woman to have to 3 albums to sell over 10 million copies, she is the only person with seven consecutive number ones, she had 11 number ones together, and she sold nearly 150 million records together....it is impossible for the singers that i mentioned(who all claim whitney as one of their inspirations)....to not have been influenced by whitney, as it would have been impossible for whitney not be have been influenced by diana ross or aretha franklin(who subsequently are all int he hall fame)....plus she only person to takk the national anthem to the top the top ten

Posted by dave on Monday, 09.8.08 @ 15:00pm


I'm not really a fan of any of the singers mentioned as being influenced by Houston. That being said, there are many of them, and the fact that they have had success modeling themselves to a degree after her does say something about what she has contributed to music over the past quarter century. The innovation factor is near nil, but the influence is staggering, so I guess I say yes, let her in.

Posted by Cheesecrop on Monday, 09.8.08 @ 19:05pm


dave...Whitney Houston wasn't really the first to do much of anything, unless it;s to totally OVER-SING a song...too much extra "Oooo yeah"s and "Ohhhhhhhh"s and other various wailing and squawking. Just sing the song, lady...geez!!!!

And as a footnote, I'm not exactly sure what the number is (38, I believe), but Mariah Carey has more number one hits that ELVIS!!! Not that I'm a fan, but Houston's sales pale in comparison.

Posted by Gitarzan on Monday, 09.8.08 @ 19:06pm


Cheesecrop...I'd have to say that all female R&B singers probably passed through the Aretha Franklin portal. She's probably the ultimate influence in that style of music. I might have to throw Tina Turner in there, too.

Posted by Gitarzan on Monday, 09.8.08 @ 19:16pm


Actually gitarzan....mariah carey has the most comibined numaber 1 singles(18 please get your facts straight lol), whitney houston has the most consecutive(7), and regardless of the extraneous vocals...the woman can undoubtedly sing ver well.And actuall according to soundscan there sells are right even....mariah carey sold more in a time when records sells went down considerably...as for the Aretha Franklin statement, you are totally corrrect. But as i stated whitney houston combined the pop of barbara streisand and the soul of aretha franklin to produce a new kind of pop singer...i dont think there is anyone before her who dide that with success..actually i know there isnt. Whitney houstond did pass through Aretha franklins portal, just as Aretha Franklin passed through the combinations of Mahalia Jackson Etta James, Sarah Vaughn( who she says are her influences).

Posted by dave on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 16:25pm


well who said whitney was not really the first to do anything?? she sure was. i am from the Bahamas and i know for a fact Whitney was the first woman to sing the National Anthem and go platinum,she is to date the most awarded female in music,she was the first black woman to co-act in a movie removing racial barriers and paving the way for other black entertainers to come, she was the first to have seven cosecutive #1 singles, she was the first to have the longest running single (i will always love you),she was the first the haved the longest running #2 (shoop) just to name a few. should i say anymore??? whitney is an icon i love and respect this woman to death i think she is more than qualified to be inducted into the rock and roll hall a fame.

Posted by keva on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 16:28pm


Okay, let's get this straight. The ONLY reason that her rendition (which she lip-synched at that game) of the Star Spangled Banner was because we had just entered a war...and it was the Super Bowl, the single most watched game in American sports. Patriotism had more to do with those sales than she did. Has that song ever been sung better? Probably, but not at the Super Bowl during a war. It went Top 10 when it was re-released after 9/11...I think patriotism had something to do with it then, too. Also, "I Will Always Love You" (more bellowing and wailing) is not the longest running number one single...NOW who needs to get their facts straight?

I will give her due on her popularity and accomplishments, which there is no denying. As far as innovation and influence, I don't hear a lot of people say they were influenced by her. These so-called "divas" have been popping up all over the place for some time now, and who's to say who exactly influenced them. To me, she's just as annoying as the rest of them, so I guess you could say I'm a little biased.

Posted by Gitarzan on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 18:13pm


BRAVO, Gitarzan!

Tom

Posted by Tom on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 18:44pm


ok can you go back and read what i said? i said that IWALU was the first longest #1 single ever, Whitney has not sang in over a decade so i know that some of the records that she has broken was broken after she did but if you would like to check it out it is right here in google. However you sound as if you are doing alot of assuming yourself, but the fact is this for what ever reason the SPB went platinum it did, so once again that went down in History i can understand that you may not be a fan, like myself but the least you can do as an individual is be fair and honest, and may be check your facts before being so quick to say that i am wrong. Give honor to whom it is due, that wouldnt hurt, would it??? that said Whitney has done her part in the music world and if i may add she has done far more than most. Also i am not over exadurating if you have never heard any one say they were inspired by Whitney then do me a favor please, go to you tube and put into the search engine stars on Whitney! you will see from Celine Dion, Maria Carey, Britney Spears,Monica,Brandy,Rhianna etc sayin that Whitney was a huge inspriration in the Career. i am not saying this for any kind of controversy what soever by the way i am just stating some facts. Peace out!!!!

Posted by keva on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 20:30pm


i just had to come back and add something. i understand that this forum was posted for people to stop by and leave comments, i also understand that every one is entitled to there own opinion. However what i dont get at times is how people can feel so comfortable being negative toward someone they have never meet and who have never in any way hurt you or any one that you love. imo this is unfair, but i guees so is the world that we live in ey?? in saying this may i just say it feels much better to show a little bit of love sometimes than to try to go out of your way to destroy somebodies reputation and character, because in the end you have not gained. Remember that calebs are peolpe too, they have family that love and care about them and want to see them make it. Thus sometimes if you dont have nothing nice to say or add to a persons being built up may be the best thing to do is to remain silent!!! What the world needs is more LOVE. Peace and much love people because remeber we are all human and we all at some point or another need someone to show us love. Today may be for Whitney and tomorrow can be for me or you!!!

Posted by keva on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 20:46pm


Gitarzan NO ONE said that "I will always love you" still stands as the longest running single but it is the second longest after being beaten by Boys to men and Mariah Carey's "one sweet day", also whitney lip synching the Star Spangled Banner was such a lame attempt to bring her down (didn't work btw), she still sang it at some point didn't she???? so it's still her voice which had ALOT to do with why that song was such a success along with the fact that there was a war going on, so despite your personal dislike for whitney she has still accomplished more than MANY will ever dream of achieving in their life times, that said I say she is more than qualified for the induction. Go on whitney your the best for US your fans and we love you :-)

Posted by kk on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 20:52pm


You people are TOO MUCH!! It's just as much my priviledge to dislike her as it is for you to like her!! (By the way Frankie Laine has the distinction of having the longest running number one single...18 weeks in 1953...so enough about that). kk and keva part of a long line of people who have no objectivity when it comes to their "favorite artists". I'm asking about innovation (none), influence (there's a difference between "admire" and "influence") and perpetuation, which if you weren't so blind you'd see I gave her Kudos where they were due! It doesn't have anything to do with "love and hate". As I've stated before, there's a lot of artists that I have enjoyed over the years who I know have no shot at the HOF. At least I admit it!!! As far as Whitney Houston goes...who knows??? After all, Madonna got in!!!

You're going to sometimes hear stuff you don't want to hear about her and other artists you like. If you do, just offer an informed rebuttal. If you can't do that, all I can say is...

"If you can't stand the heat...!!!!"

Posted by Gitarzan on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 21:04pm


well first of all kk i think you misunderstood what i was saying. i am by all means a huge Whitney fan, by the way i always was. i am still waiting on he come back like all of her fans......... Then to you Gitarzan it is not a matter of stading the heat, it is a matter of you coming and being free to post your comment and i being free to do likewise. i respect what you have said so do me a favor and respect what i have said because i am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. peace out!

Posted by keva on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 21:30pm


Whitney Houston is responsible for Celine Dion, Maria Carey, Britney Spears, Monica, Brandy, Rhianna?

That's reason enough to keep her out of the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame.

SpaceTrucker

"Satin laughing spreads his wings, oh ya now"

Black Sabbath

Posted by SpaceTrucker on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 21:42pm


I stated my opinion about Whitney Houston and threw a fact or two into it...you two seemed to take offense. When I said she really didn't do anything "first", that's the time to add an informed rebuttal, which you really haven't. The things that I said about the "Star-Spangled Banner" are a fact. Lee Greenwood's "God Bless The U.S.A." was enjoying a similar revival for the same reason...Patriotism.

If you're a big fan...great!! More power to ya!!! I try to be objective, if you take it as being "negative"...your problem. I can't stand her or any other artist who "over-sing" a song!!! It's grating to me, and I voiced my opinion on it. I thought she was at her best with songs like "How Will I Know", up-tempo without a chance to do all the extra "screeching, OOOH YEAHS, OH BABYS and WHOAAAAAA's"!! I personally can't stand any singer who insists on doing that...but it's MY personal preference...not one you have to agree with!!!

Posted by Gitarzan on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 21:53pm


oooooooooo........ k wow that was interesting but ill have to pass on this one, no comments. Whitney is an icon kk sorry i just had to come back i just saw your post and what you said was true she is more than qualified, thanks girl/guy lol. we are also here in the Bahamas holding the faith for our girl because as long as Jesus sits on the throne i still believe in miracles. satan is a liar, he always has been. Whitney will be back because her gift and call speaks for itself and in the end it shall bring her once again before great men.

Posted by keva on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 21:54pm


Maybe we should hook up keva with the Coven fans...THAT would be interesting!!!

Posted by Gitarzan on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 22:03pm


How do you know Satins not a woman?

SpaceTrucker

"I'm on the highway to hell"

AC/DC

Posted by SpaceTrucker on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 22:04pm


Because religion is complete bullshit!

These are just lyrics from songs, but if you want to go religion on us, have at it.

SpaceTrucker

"Jesus is my friend"

The Doobie Brothers

Posted by SpaceTrucker on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 22:10pm


oh by the way Gitarzan that comment was not meant for you because i just saw it, that was meant for the one above you but i hear you and ill say that we are all entitled to our own opinions my friend. Also i didnt take offense, but hey if that was the way it came across please accept my humble apologies. in your opinion i may be didnt bring across a strong rebuttle but that is only because i am just the type a person that like to see every one given a fair chance at what they have such a strong passion to do. Notice, some of what i said was not only to try to promote Whitney. Yes i am a whitney fan but besides that i try to live my life considering other people in the process, and not only myself, because it is more to life than that, for me. I think life is about or should be about caring,sharing and loving. Hey dont get me wrong 'variety is the spice of life' so if you don't like what Whitney has to offer well then such is life buddy, no harm done, but like i said i can't disrepect you for your opinion because i want to be respected for mine. Peace buddy!!!

Posted by keva on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 22:11pm


SpaceTrucker...y'know, I read things on here that at times leave me speechless!!!

Posted by Gitarzan on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 22:14pm


Gitarzan...Speechless...Impossible,

You are the man on this website!

SpaceTrucker

"If you can't be with the one you love honey, love the one your with"

Stephen Stills


Posted by SpaceTrucker on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 22:20pm


i thought i was the only one mate...... i am glad to see that we have something in common lol but on the real though this is a real serious world that we live in, i find that out more and more each day.

Posted by keva on Tuesday, 09.9.08 @ 22:21pm


if you dont like whitney, u dont like aretha, diana ross, gladys knight, etta james, tina turner (all hall of famers....etc...and thats youre right! But whitney's level of annoyance(to you) does not equate to rock and roll hall of fame qualifications. I probably think pink floyd, the beatles, or the rolling stones are seriously annoying and all nonrevolutionary being that the stole so much from others( but i dont because i respect music and feel it is expression at a centered at those with similiar taste....but her accomplishments are staggering point blank! Just look at American idol, they had to ban her songs, because they became repetitious....they speaks to some extent of her influence.

Posted by dave on Wednesday, 09.10.08 @ 16:14pm


dave...thanks for giving me a clue on what I like and don't like...I never would've known. Just because I'm not crazy about her material doesn't mean I don't acknowledge what she's done. On the contrary, she's got as good of credentials as anyone.

Her singing still annoys the hell out of me, though!!

Posted by Gitarzan on Wednesday, 09.10.08 @ 16:43pm


boy Dave i am loving this post i don't think i could of said it better myself.

Posted by keva on Wednesday, 09.10.08 @ 21:30pm


also Gitarzan i must say that i respect you a whole lot as well...... i really think it takes a real man/woman to do what you just did!!!!

Posted by keva on Wednesday, 09.10.08 @ 21:46pm


Whitney should be inducted. She is an Icon.

Posted by Wil89 on Thursday, 09.11.08 @ 14:15pm


whitney should be inducted. i am with this all the way, why?? because she has done her part in the music world she sets the standard that many after her came behind and followed

Posted by nippyme on Thursday, 09.11.08 @ 15:16pm


it would be an injustice if she is not inducted. If they can induct Diana Ross (who to me seems to be lacking in soul and vocal prowlness) then they should induct Whitney Houston. Whitney has paved the way for many successful female and male vocalists and she has set the standards of how songs should be sung.

Posted by wil89 on Friday, 09.12.08 @ 19:10pm


Hey will89 I hear you!But just think where her career be if she wasn't on drugs.Her ex husband could ace been a double inductee!

Posted by Leon on Friday, 09.12.08 @ 21:34pm


to your answer Leon i dont think her drug use should be an issue, why? because pre-drugs she has left a dent in the music/movie world. Just take look at all of her accomplishment and you will see where i am coming from. Then take a look at most if not all of the legends such as Elvis (he died from drug overdose) etc yet still he is considered a legend. Thus imo a persons personal life should not affect their legacy.

Posted by nippyme on Saturday, 09.13.08 @ 21:34pm


Hey Nippyme You know your right.Her personal life should not be brought up.I love her first 2 albums.There hasn't been another singer male or female that can do what she do.Also her ex Bobby could have been a double inductee if he had at least 3 more hit albums.He'll probably get in as a member of New Edition.But as a solo artist no.

Posted by Leon on Sunday, 09.14.08 @ 17:52pm


Hey Nippyme with a name like Nippyme it obvious you are truly a fan.Hope she gets in.

Posted by Leon on Sunday, 09.14.08 @ 17:57pm


hey leon thanks for the postitive feed back...... yes i hope and pray that she gets in as well. That will make my year :-)

Posted by nippyme on Monday, 09.15.08 @ 17:00pm


There are some really dumbazz people posting on this site.

Why would her drug use prevent her or be a hindrance? This is the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame not the Major League’s Baseball Hall of Fame. How many artist who have already been inducted lived to the mantra of sex, drugs and ummm? Oh yeah, Rock and Roll.

And I must say this as a white guy, ok....who is that idiot Andrew, who says she made too much R&B? Wasn't Aretha Franklin the first woman inducted? Weren’t Stevie Wonder, Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross, The Temptations, Otis Redding and Gladys Knight all have been inducted? So, what was your point of saying she was too R&B and not Pop enough? Isn't the origin of Rock and Roll universally considered to be R&B?

That being said; this Black girl sold something like 200 Million singles and albums. Is the best singer ever and influenced a lot of other singers attempting to sound like her.

No one to the next post...............

Posted by D Martini on Wednesday, 10.15.08 @ 10:50am


Whitney Houston will definitely be induced, but I think it will be in 2010 she was not elligble this year. Whitney Houston in my opinion is the most influencial female singer in the past 25 years along side Madonna. Both set the standards for 2 different styles of singers, Madonna mostly for the image, videos, etc., and Whitney mostly for the singing, and both for the accomplishements especially Whitney. Whitney: Biggest debut ever, first to debut at no.1, most consecutive no.1s, biggest single by a female, biggest soundtrack in history, biggest recording deal in history, most awarded female ever (guiness book)... heck even on american idol she's the most covered artist on that show. As for r&b/pop vs rock n roll, well tons of r&b acts have been inducted so musically it's ok, and also whitney's personal life is definitely "rock n roll".... lol

Posted by Sam on Monday, 10.20.08 @ 22:31pm


Sam, Madonna influential? You gotta be shiting me. Madonna sucks.

Posted by Sucking F*cks on Wednesday, 10.22.08 @ 17:14pm


she deserves to be inducted. she's my pot icon.

Posted by akeem on Sunday, 01.11.09 @ 22:14pm


whitney is the female singer of our generation.most female singers today say that whitney is the voice .she deserves to be inducted.

Posted by wayne on Thursday, 01.15.09 @ 10:49am


Refresh my memory but I don't recall Whitney ever singing anything even approaching rock & roll. Am I wrong?

Posted by Worm on Thursday, 01.15.09 @ 11:16am


well she did sing songs that could make her rock and roll quality, no she has never sang hard rock but many of her songs are collaboration such as 'How will I know, O wanna dance with some Body, Queen of the night etc......they can go as cross over music. That should stand for something, making her qualified! Thus i say bring it on and induct Ms. Houston asap lol i love that lady to death!

Posted by kb on Monday, 01.19.09 @ 00:44am


Absolutely deserving. Never mind what one thinks about the quality of her music, Houston was an unstoppable commercial force in music throughout the 80s and 90s. How quickly we forget? Her impact was undeniable. For better or worse, almost every female pop vocalist that's followed in her wake owes her a debt. And even if she never used it as well as she could have done, her voice is easily one of the greatest in pop history.

Posted by singha on Friday, 01.30.09 @ 20:24pm


As for RECORDING at the Super Bowl, it is standard for all artist to record and lip-synch their songs to prevent an acoustic problems or other technical difficulties that will mar the performance. Jennifer Hudson also pre-recorded her singing.

I think it's totally disingenuous to blame Whitney for releasing the Star Spangle Banner during war time.

The scenario went like this. She was out of the scene for about four years, so she came back about a year before war was declare (albeit a rather short 2 month war). She a sang the moment stirring SSB ever (which is standard to be sung before all sporting events in the USA). Hers was the most popular, so people demand it until it became a top ten hit. That sounds pretty simple to me. See...it was easy...

Posted by Check077 on Saturday, 03.14.09 @ 22:39pm


I think of all the big-voiced "divas," Whitney may stand the best chance at consideration (which doesn't necessarily mean induction). Part of the problem is that the music often is viewed as lightweight, but she did set a template for female pop/R&B, and acts that followed her.

Posted by JR on Friday, 04.17.09 @ 10:13am


I think she'll get in. I grew up in the late 80s and 90s and she along with mj and madonna where constants.

Posted by mel on Monday, 07.27.09 @ 17:52pm


For the most part, everyone seems to be in agreement, to allow her in. For the few of you who don't, seem to just not be intrested in that genre of music, and thus don't believe she should be inducted.

Speaking of sales & her catalog; her counterparts, Mariah & Celine, Madonna etc all of them have nearly TWICE the number of released albums that Whitney does, yet she is in the same ballpark of sales. That's an impact.

She's always the most awarded celebrity in the world, via Guiness book of records. That's really all the impact you need. Those of you just saying "no, she should crack is whack" really need to go do your research on her accomplishments and history. I'm not about to do that for you.

Her first non-offical single I Look To You Debuted on the Billboard R$B at 27, with only 6 days of airplay. The single isn't even offical. She's still a force with drug addiction baggage or not.

Posted by Chris on Thursday, 07.30.09 @ 07:41am


if the hall would induct some artist/s on their first year of eligibility, in my opinion that would be Whitney than RHCP.

there are lots of rock artists that have not yet been inducted (Deep Purple, Joy Division, Sonic Youth, etc...), anyway RHCP will be inducted just like how they treated Metallica.

Posted by akeem on Thursday, 07.30.09 @ 15:53pm


Sexual Chocolate!

Posted by denyo on Tuesday, 04.13.10 @ 22:40pm


"I probably think pink floyd, the beatles, or the rolling stones are seriously annoying and all nonrevolutionary being that the stole so much from others"

Floyd, Beatles and The Stones not revolutionary? You're kidding right?

All depends on WH's influence. If she really did influence a bunch of divas then I say yes (though really Aretha Franklin should get the credit), if not then I definitely say no (sales alone don't get you a spot.)

Posted by Sam on Saturday, 06.12.10 @ 16:16pm


Because of her music, and that she is, well, just another pop singer, I would have to say no--and this is a shame, becuase she has more than enough talent do be worthy, if talent alone were enough.

Posted by Joe on Saturday, 06.12.10 @ 17:00pm


great singer, very deserving

Posted by quota on Sunday, 08.8.10 @ 11:02am


ABSOLUTELY YES! Its a common trait the people who say no ALWAYS resort to the drug thing. Didnt Elvis die from drugs, not being funny but wasnt Michael Jacksons death drug related. Lets be serious there is NO DOUBT the impact she has had on music. Ask any artist or recording exe I promise you they will say yes.
Clive Davis the man behind Whitney has been inducted and during his induction Whitney's name, career and accomplishments were all brought up and focused on.
She will get in NO DOUBT there was someone on here saying she wasnt the first at anything...You dont know music do you. She was the FIRST to debut an album for a female at #1 with her 2nd album that honor will never go away. She is the ONLY female artist with 3 diamond albums. She has the biggest selling album by a female artist and the biggest selling single by a female and the ONLY ARTIST to have 7 consecutive #1 singles. Im sorry you said she wasnt the first to do what? She is the first female artist to stay #1 for 14 weeks tied ONLY by Mariah "We Belong Together". Stop trying to count One Sweet Day that was a DUET written by Mariah AND BoysIIMen. Check the credits its on their album AND hers.
One said she never influenced any one...REALLY?!?!?! You better not say the to Anita Baker, Celine Dion, Brandy, Mary J Blige, Mariah Carey, Jennifer Hudson, Destiny Child, and Monica ALWAYS does a set in her show dedicated to Whitney and you say no influence come better then that.
To say you dont like her is one thing but to say she dosent deserve to be there is ridiculous.
Say what you want about her performance of the Star Spangled Banner but guess what BILLBOARD, VH1, MTV, BET, Rolling Stone and several others have all named her rendition of the song THE BEST HANDS DOWN and that has nothing to do with sales or chart performance. Its that voice...ask American Idol who has banned her songs because they were being covered WAY TOO MUCH. Hello she is the most covered artist MALE OR FEMALE and you say no influence....now now lets be serious but you however are voicing your opinion I think what your missing is that people are giving you the facts that you keep trying to give as reasons of why she shouldnt be inducted. Its ok to be wrong and sorry to say....YOU ARE WRONG WHITNEY HOUSTON WILL BE INDUCTED!

Posted by datnicca73 on Tuesday, 09.28.10 @ 23:15pm


Absolutely not. She is beyond overrated. Yes, she *HAD* a good voice, but she didn't sing anything that we haven't heard from the likes of Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick many years prior; and her tone is very common. I've heard several singers match the simple technique and charisma Houston put in her songs (ie. Jennifer Hudson, 13-year-old Taiwanese boy, etc.). Chaka Khan, Anita Baker - now THOSE are unique vocalists!
And she isn't the most credible artist either. Without the guidance of Clive Davis, she is practically a deer in headlights, as proven with "Just Whitney" and "One Wish for Christmas", two albums she recorded outside the Arista label. She is as factory-produced as the Disney stars.
And I think it goes without saying that her music and her career has limited longevity. At least Madonna still finds ways to reinvent herself, whether it may seem desperate, or not. Her fans may think that she is this influence-wielding machine, but she's not. People may say that they "listened to her music while growing up" but what else? Her vocal stylings and diva attitude appeared well before her career began. Hell, even Mariah Carey's melisma technique is more influential!
I don't think her past career achievements will get her in either. Yes, she was succesfull in her own right, but numerically, she's put to shame by Barbra Streisand, Madonna and Mariah Carey.

So, that's a no for me, and most likely the Hall.

Posted by jerry on Thursday, 09.30.10 @ 13:39pm


I guess. She is easily the most influential singer of her generation. Her debut album is revered and set a template for others to follow. She's a great performer. She's got soul. But her catalog is kind of lacking. If she makes a successful, soulful and critically acclaimed comeback, then she deserves it. If she makes a successful and commercial comeback (like Mariah), then no.

Posted by JRKing on Sunday, 10.10.10 @ 18:51pm


She will get in hands down. Whitney is the greatest singer of her generation and perhaps the greatest female singer of all time. Yes, it is true she does not have a catalog of 50 or more albums, but her impact on music is undeniable. Drug use aside, I think she definetly desrves a place in the hall.

Posted by TheGenius on Sunday, 10.10.10 @ 18:52pm


it would be an injustice if she is not inducted. If they can induct Diana Ross (who to me seems to be lacking in soul and vocal prowlness) then they should induct Whitney Houston. Whitney has paved the way for many successful female and male vocalists and she has set the standards of how songs should be sung.

Posted by Will89 on Sunday, 10.10.10 @ 18:53pm


Whitney Houston is Dionne Warwick's cousin.

Posted by Roy on Sunday, 10.10.10 @ 19:01pm


She has natural talent, it's pretty obvious. I think she's actually the only female singer who should be inducted.

Posted by Brittany on Wednesday, 11.17.10 @ 15:04pm


"I think she's actually the only female singer who should be inducted."

Congrats Brittany, you've topped yourself! This might be the stupidest comment you've ever written. Answer me this: Are you a chimp in some lab that scientists have taught how to type?

Posted by Chalkie on Wednesday, 11.17.10 @ 15:54pm


We don't really have to say much
Following Houston's breakthrough, other African-American female artists, such as Janet Jackson and Anita Baker, were successful in popular music.[44][45] Baker commented that "Because of what Whitney did, there was an opening for me... For radio stations, black women singers aren't taboo anymore."

She came in third on MTV's 22 Greatest Voices,[177] sixth on Online Magazine COVE's list of the 100 Best Pop Vocalists with a score of 48.5/50.[178] In 2008, Rolling Stone listed Houston as the thirty-fourth of the 100 greatest singers of all time, stating "Her voice is a mammoth, coruscating cry: Few vocalists could get away with opening a song with 45 unaccompanied seconds of singing
Rolling Stone, on her biography, stated that Houston "redefined the image of a female soul icon and inspired singers ranging from Mariah Carey to Rihanna."[183] A number of artists have acknowledged Houston as an influence. Mariah Carey, who was often compared to Houston, said, "Houston has been a big influence on me."[184] She later told USA Today that "none of us would sound the same if Aretha Franklin hadn't ever put out a record, or Whitney Houston hadn't.
Oscar winner Jennifer Hudson cites Houston as her biggest musical influence. She told Newsday that she learned from Houston the "difference between being able to sing and knowing how to sing".[187] Leona Lewis, who has been called as the New Whitney Houston, also cites her as an influence. Lewis has stated that she idolized as a little girl.[188][189] Beyoncé Knowles told the Globe and Mail that Houston "inspired [her] to get up there and do what [she] did."[190] Alicia Keys, in the interview on her new studio album with the Billboard magazine, also said "Whitney is an artist who inspired me from [the time I was] a little girl."[191] Celine Dion,[192] Toni Braxton,[193] Christina Aguilera,[194] Kelly Clarkson, Britney Spears,[195] Ciara,[196] P!nk,[195] Robin Thicke,[197] Jennifer Hudson, Amerie,[198] Destiny's Child,[195][199] Regine Velasquez and Charice have all cited Houston as a musical inspiration.

Well....just look at the facts,it's from Wikipaideia btw.1

Posted by zene2 on Sunday, 01.30.11 @ 15:46pm


Whitney Houston is one of the most important female artists in music, period.

#1- Her singing style: For the past three decades, no other female singer has been as vocally influential as Houston. Mariah, Beyonce, Christina, Jennifer H, Leona, Celine, Jessie J, Kelly Clarkson, Kelly Rowland, Faith Hill, Mary J. Blige, Kelly Price, Pink, Britney Spears, Rihanna, Brandy, Lady Gaga, Nelly Furtado, Ciara, Alicia Keys, Michelle Williams, Toni Braxton, Amerie and a slew of others have cited her as a major influence, even if half of them aren't anywhere near as vocally talented. On top of that, her voice is FAR from common. There was no one who combined gospel's soulful quality with pop's commerciality into one voice and style. Her voice had a ridiculous clarity, incredible power, range and virtuosity. Vocally, she was like a mix of Streisand and Franklin, with the commerciality and diva attitude of Diana Ross/Donna Summer/Dionne Warwick, so yeah, she was FAR from common. And for the past 3 decades, every major "singer" has been trying to do what she did vocally.

#2- Her importance: In a world of white male rock artists, Houston made an indelible mark. She was one of the first black artists to receive heavy rotation on MTV, all her music was released multi-format, and she was able to reach all audiences. Anita Baker even said "Because of what Whitney did, there was an opening for me... For radio stations, black women singers aren't taboo anymore." Whitney broke the Beatles and the Bee Gees joint record for most consecutive #1 hits, scoring 7 in a row. Her sophomore album was the first album by a female artist to reach #1. Her debut album was the first album by a female to surpass the 10 million mark in the US. And The Bodyguard OST...let's not even go there, cos that was a phenom all by itself. And that's just a little bit of the things she's done. No other black female singer had done what Whitney did upon their debut. None.

Her debut album has been stated to have the provided blueprint for decades of divas. Her instant success has been cited by Billboard as one of music's top milestones.

In short, Houston's success was the catalyst of a sharp and GARGANTUAN change in music, black artists, pop artists, R&B artists and female artists in particular.

Whitney proved you could not only be the best singer of your generation, but the biggest star. And she was both. She did this through pure SINGING. Very mininal songwriting and such. She just sang.

Posted by NGHHJJ on Saturday, 05.21.11 @ 20:04pm


I hope so. Youhave on TY like 12 videos of others praising her, I remmebered this-When MJ and WH showed up Music was changed forever.

I dont care about her personal life and all that, but music and impact on it, records achievements amazing,plus influence on every female artists that came after her.

Posted by Marcos on Tuesday, 09.13.11 @ 07:06am


I'm surprised Whitney has yet to be inducted.
Along with Mariah Carey, she has influenced ALL of todays "SINGERS".

I have a feeling they are holding back because of her current reputation (drug use) and the fact that she isn't an "active" relevant artist at the moment.
Compare that to Mariah Carey, who has been out just as long as whitney, but it still a force in the industry.

Posted by Bastian on Tuesday, 11.29.11 @ 22:22pm


Whitney has / had a great voice. Whitney didn't write many lyrics. Whitney doesn't belong.

Posted by Marissa on Tuesday, 12.13.11 @ 13:37pm


Why not put Whitney in? She's been just as influential and famous as other 80's acts like Madonna, Prince, and MJ

Posted by Person on Thursday, 01.5.12 @ 18:23pm


RIP

Posted by DarinRG on Saturday, 02.11.12 @ 20:18pm


Whitney Houston died! Damn it! Didn't we almost have it all?

Posted by Roy on Saturday, 02.11.12 @ 20:35pm


R.I.P. Whitney

Posted by Steve Z on Saturday, 02.11.12 @ 20:38pm


Don't do drugs people.

RIP.

Posted by Jim on Saturday, 02.11.12 @ 21:29pm


Whitney Houston died on Gerry Goffin's 73rd birthday. Gerry Goffin wrote the lyrics to Whitney's first Billboard #1 hit, "Saving All My Love For You" (The music was written by Michael Masser)

Posted by Aaron O'Donnell on Sunday, 02.12.12 @ 00:00am


Why not put Whitney in? She's been just as influential and famous as other 80's acts like Madonna, Prince, and MJ

Posted by Person on Thursday, 01.5.12 @ 18:23pm

I have to agree.

Her low ranking on our "Rock Rankings" here on FRL is ludicrous. Below Journey? Jesus. The low perception of her around here stems from, among other things, that there's not a *sole* female regular poster on this forum.

With a truly open mind, it is not difficult at all to see her influence on today's musical landscape.

Anyway, like George Harrison, she'll get in the HoF much sooner now. And, IMO, she deserves it. RIP.

Posted by DC on Sunday, 02.12.12 @ 00:13am


RIP Whitney. Obviously Kevin Costner wasn't doing his job properly.

Posted by Philip on Sunday, 02.12.12 @ 01:12am


They always say famous people die in groups of 3. ETTA JAMES, DON CORNELIUS, and now WHITNEY.

Posted by Bill G. on Sunday, 02.12.12 @ 02:13am


Leaving the greatest female vocalist of all time out of the R & R Hall of Fame is ludicrous. As a tribute, she should be inducted this year. There is so much no talent crap in the Hall now, why not make room for a great artist. In the last hundred years millions of people have sung the national anthem. Only one is worth remembering. May she rest in peace.

Posted by Fred S. on Sunday, 02.12.12 @ 12:32pm


I'm sorry, but I don't understand how a grown woman who knows how to swim can drown in a bath tub unless she was under the influence of something, or she purposely held her head under the water because she wanted to die. Please explain.

Posted by Sad on Sunday, 02.12.12 @ 22:41pm


WHITNEY HOUSTON 1985-1991

Hold Me * You Give Good Love * Saving All My Love For You * All At Once * Greatest Love Of All * How Will I Know * I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me) * So Emotional * One Moment In Time * Where Do Broken Hearts Go * Didn't We Almost Have It All * I'm Your Baby Tonight * All The Man I Need * Miracle * My Name Is Not Susan

WHITNEY HOUSTON 1992-20??

I Will Always Love You * I Have Nothing * I'm Every Woman * Run To You * Queen Of The Night * Something In Common * Exhale (Shoop Shoop) * Why Does It Hurt So Bad * Count On Me * When You Believe * I Believe In You And Me * Heartbreak Hotel * My Love Is Your Love * Step By Step * Its Not Right But It's Okay * If I Told You That * Could I Have This Kiss Forever * I Learned From The Best * Same Script, Different Cast * Try It On My Own

Posted by Roy on Monday, 02.13.12 @ 00:31am


WHITNEY HOUSTON DUETS

01. Whitney Houston and Teddy Pendergrass - Hold Me
02. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - If You Say My Eyes Are Beautiful
03. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - Nobody Loves Me Like You Do
04. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - Take Good Care Of My Heart
05. Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown - Something In Common
06. Whitney Houston and CeCe Winans - Count On Me
07. Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey - When You Believe
08. Whitney Houston with Faith Evans and Kelly Price - Heartbreak Hotel
09. Whitney Houston and George Michael - If I Told You That
10. Whitney Houston and Enrique Iglesias - Could I Have This Kiss Forever
11. Whitney Houston and Deborah Cox - Same Script, Different Cast

Posted by Roy on Monday, 02.13.12 @ 00:51am


WHITNEY HOUSTON DUETS

01. Whitney Houston and Teddy Pendergrass - Hold Me
02. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - If You Say My Eyes Are Beautiful
03. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - Nobody Loves Me Like You Do
04. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - Take Good Care Of My Heart
05. Whitney Houston and Cissy Houston - I Know Him So Well
06. Whitney Houston and Stevie Wonder - We Didn't Know
07. Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown - Something In Common
08. Whitney Houston and CeCe Winans - Count On Me
09. Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey - When You Believe
10. Whitney Houston with Faith Evans and Kelly Price - Heartbreak Hotel
11. Whitney Houston and George Michael - If I Told You That
12. Whitney Houston and Enrique Iglesias - Could I Have This Kiss Forever
13. Whitney Houston and Deborah Cox - Same Script, Different Cast

Posted by Roy on Monday, 02.13.12 @ 01:06am


Jerry Garcia died on Whitney Houston's 32nd birthday (August 9, 1995) while Whitney canceled a show on what would have been Jerry's 57th birthday (August 1, 1999) at the Concord Pavilion, which is in Jerry's home turf of the San Francisco Bay Area.

Posted by Aaron O'Donnell on Monday, 02.13.12 @ 03:45am


Whitney truly had an amazing voice, but she didn't write her own material. Celine Dion has an amazing voice.... if Whitney is to be considered, so should Celine.

I still say no. (sorry)

Posted by Mike on Monday, 02.13.12 @ 15:34pm


Whitney Houston died on Burt Reynolds' 76th birthday. Dolly Parton sang "I Will Always Love You" to Burt Reynolds in "The Best Little Whorehouse in Texas" a decade before Whitney sang it to Kevin Costner in "The Bodyguard."

Posted by Aaron O'Donnell on Monday, 02.13.12 @ 22:02pm


Yesterday (February 14) was the 27th anniversary of the release of Whitney Houston's self-titled debut album.

Posted by Aaron O'Donnell on Wednesday, 02.15.12 @ 22:53pm


HALL OF FAMERS ASSOCIATED WITH WHITNEY HOUSTON

1. ABBA- "I Know Him So Well," the final track on Whitney's second album, "Whitney" was written by Benny Andersson, Bjorn Ulvaeus and Tim Rice and originally appeared in the musical "Chess."

2. Clive Davis- President of Arista Records, the label Whitney was signed to

3. Aretha Franklin- Whitney's godmother

4. Gerry Goffin- Wrote the lyrics to "Saving All My Love For You" Whitney's first Hot 100 chart-topper

5. Jermaine Jackson- Recorded duets with Whitney, including "If You Say My Eyes Are Beautiful" and "Nobody Loves Me Like You Do"

6. Leon Russell- Whitney included a version of "A Song For You" on her album "I Look to You"

7. Stevie Wonder- Wrote and produced "We Didn't Know" on Houston's album, "I'm Your Baby Tonight."
Also Whitney included a cover of Wonder's "I Was Made To Love Her" changing the "her" to "him" on her album, "My Love Is Your Love"

Posted by Aaron O'Donnell on Thursday, 02.16.12 @ 21:51pm


Both Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey would cover songs that they originally sang backup on. Whitney sang backing vocals on Chaka Khan's version of "I'm Every Woman" which she would record herself on "The Bodyguard" soundtrack. Mariah Carey sang backup on Brenda K. Starr's "I Still Believe" which she would record herself ten years later for the compilation album "#1's"

Posted by Aaron O'Donnell on Friday, 02.17.12 @ 13:59pm


Well, writing one's own material doesn't necessarily make them a lesser artist- look at Elvis, Aretha Franklin, etc. And some acts write their own material, and the material isn't that highly regarded (i.e. Mariah Carey). Of the big-voiced "divas' of the 80s, 90s, etc. Whitney should be considered- she set the template for female R&B/pop that came after her. Will her unfortunate passing give the Hall more reason to consider her more seriously? We'll see.

Posted by JR on Saturday, 02.18.12 @ 11:13am


WHITNEY HOUSTON DUETS

01. Whitney Houston and Teddy Pendergrass - Hold Me
02. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - If You Say My Eyes Are Beautiful
03. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - Nobody Loves Me Like You Do
04. Whitney Houston and Jermaine Jackson - Take Good Care Of My Heart
05. Whitney Houston and Cissy Houston - I Know Him So Well
06. Whitney Houston and Stevie Wonder - We Didn't Know
07. Whitney Houston and Aretha Franklin - It Isn't, It Wasn't, It Ain't Never Gonna Be
08. Whitney Houston and Bobby Brown - Something In Common
09. Whitney Houston and CeCe Winans - Count On Me
10. Whitney Houston and Mariah Carey - When You Believe
11. Whitney Houston with Faith Evans and Kelly Price - Heartbreak Hotel
12. Whitney Houston and George Michael - If I Told You That
13. Whitney Houston and Enrique Iglesias - Could I Have This Kiss Forever
14. Whitney Houston and Deborah Cox - Same Script, Different Cast

Posted by Roy on Friday, 02.24.12 @ 07:31am


It's strange that no one seems to know that she lip-synched her famous national anthem performance at the Super Bowl. Great voice, but she was singing into a dead mic. Still a good recording.
The Celine Dion analogy made above is fair. But on the other side of that is the fact that she was a phenomenal commercial success. She had an amazing run of No. 1 songs and albums. Is this one of those instances where someone is such an overwhelming commercial success that it overrides the usual objections?

Posted by astrodog on Friday, 02.24.12 @ 09:10am


Contrary to suggestions that Whitney Houston may have drowned in the bathtub in her room at the Beverly Hilton, sources tell TMZ the singer died from a lethal combination of prescription drugs and alcohol. According to these reports, the 48-year-old singer was found partially submerged in the bathtub, but officials told Houston's family there was not enough water in her lungs to suggest drowning. Paramedics attempted for 20 minutes to revive the singer before pronouncing her dead at 3:55 p.m. Saturday. An official coroner's report is not expected for some time.

Posted by Roy on Wednesday, 03.7.12 @ 23:23pm


Whitney definitely deserves this honor, it's a no brainer. Whitney owns the record for having the biggest selling debut album ever (debut, "Whitney Houston"). She owns the record for having the biggest era for a female ever ("BodyGuard")and she's won more awards than any other woman in the industry. Madonna doesn't have a claim for any of these things that I've mentioned, so if she was inducted Whitney should definitely be right behind her. Whitney have equally dominated Pop and R&B music, so there is no reason why she should be over looked.

Posted by Royalkev on Thursday, 03.8.12 @ 12:45pm


"Whitney truly had an amazing voice, but she didn't write her own material. Celine Dion has an amazing voice.... if Whitney is to be considered, so should Celine."

Celine Dion hasn't achieved anywhere near the accomplishments Whitney has, nor does she have anywhere NEAR the musical impact. What a terrible analogy. Having a great voice doesn't get you these kinds of honors.

Posted by JBA on Thursday, 03.15.12 @ 16:40pm


What does doing drugs have to do with Whitney not being allowed in the Rock N Roll hall of fame? Are we forgetting that most rock stars did drugs and many died super young because of it? When Whitney died she was no longer at the top of her game but neither was Elvis Presely! Just as people joked of Whitney's 'Crack is Wack' comment, they joked about Elvis'being fat and his addictions in the last years of his life. So despite all his shortcomings, and the shortcomings of many others in the hall of fame, why do they get recognized for the brilliant work of her earlier years and not Whitney? Rock N' Roll is NOT the same as Rock. Rock N' Roll has always encompassed blues, R&B, Pop, gospel, and country elements. Rock music is one of many genres that branched off Rock N' Roll music. Whitney was a Pop/R&B/Gospel artists who delved in all three with equal gusto. She is one of the highest selling artists of all time even though she produced far less albums than her equally high selling peers like Madonna and Mariah, is the ONLY female artist to have an album in the top ten selling albums of all time, is the first artist to ever sell a million copies their first week of sales (she started the whole sell as million in a week trend), still holds the record for most consecutive number on singles, and her success broke down barriers for other black pop stars (hell most non white pop stars period) to break into the mainstream pop music industry (meaning she had more odds against her than Madonna).. She deserves her place in the Rock & Roll hall of fame.

Posted by Vbabygirl on Wednesday, 03.21.12 @ 11:42am


JJerry wrote: "Yes, she *HAD* a good voice, but she didn't sing anything that we haven't heard from the likes of Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick many years prior; and her tone is very common. I've heard several singers match the simple technique and charisma Houston put in her songs (ie. Jennifer Hudson, 13-year-old Taiwanese boy, etc.). ". Excuse me, but you don't get the title 'THE VOICE' for having a common tone to your voice. Actually, Whitney's tone was VERY unique. She has a rare mix of power, softness, soul, melisma, grit, smoothness, and virtuoso that MOST singers do not have. Jennifer Hudson's tone sounds NOTHING like Whitney. She's got a big strong voice and range but lacks the softness, clarity, and effortlessness that Whitney had. Hudson's voice is much thicker with a strong vibrato unlike Whitney's smooth vocals. Both are talented but they don't sound the same in the least bit. You can clearly tell the difference between their voices and tones. The tawainese boy that sung Whitney did ok but he def doesn't have a tone like Whitney. His voice is far too thin and light and lacks soul to even be compared to Whitney's. I'm pretty sure he would do an even better version of a Mariah Carey song given that his thin airy vocals are more closer to her style. I've heard many people sing Whitney and some even do a great job, but I have not really heard anyone with her distinct vocal tone on nuances that characterize her singing style.I've heardmore people who sound similar to, Chaka than Whitney. The Gospel world is FULL of similar singers with big thick and heavy vocals like Chaka, Jennifer Hudson, Tina, and even Aretha. (Don't believe me, listen to gospel singers). However,its truly rare that you find a singer with the perfect blend of sweetness, smoothness, clearity, AND power that Whitney had. The woman could literally sing several genres of music convincingly unlike most of her contemporaries. As far as Madonna's, Mariah's, Celine's and Barbara's record sells supposidly putting Whitney to shame, I dont know what you're talking about. Whitney sold in around the same ballpark as these other artists with about HALF the albums/material (200 million and counting now that her album sales will increase due to her death). Actually, if you were to calculate the rate at which each of these artists sell (# total albums sold/ # of albums made), Whitney had the highest selling rate out of the four of them and still is the ONLY female with an album in the top ten selling albums of all time. Its not fair to go by raw numbers when the others have clearly put out FAR more output. The simple fact that Whitney's sales only trails the others by 20-40 million and she only produced half their output says WAY more than any raw numbers. If anything, THEY should be put to shame (even though I like select songs from ALL these women)).erry wrote: "Yes, she *HAD* a good voice, but she didn't sing anything that we haven't heard from the likes of Aretha Franklin, Dionne Warwick many years prior; and her tone is very common. I've heard several singers match the simple technique and charisma Houston put in her songs (ie. Jennifer Hudson, 13-year-old Taiwanese boy, etc.). ". Excuse me, but you don't get the title 'THE VOICE' for having a common tone to your voice. Actually, Whitney's tone was VERY unique. She has a rare mix of power, softness, soul, melisma, grit, smoothness, and virtuoso that MOST singers do not have. Jennifer Hudson's tone sounds NOTHING like Whitney. She's got a big strong voice and range but lacks the softness, clarity, and effortlessness that Whitney had. Hudson's voice is much thicker with a strong vibrato unlike Whitney's smooth vocals. Both are talented but they don't sound the same in the least bit. You can clearly tell the difference between their voices and tones. The tawainese boy that sung Whitney did ok but he def doesn't have a tone like Whitney. His voice is far too thin and light and lacks soul to even be compared to Whitney's. I'm pretty sure he would do an even better version of a Mariah Carey song given that his thin airy vocals are more closer to her style. I've heard many people sing Whitney and some even do a great job, but I have not really heard anyone with her distinct vocal tone on nuances that characterize her singing style.I've heardmore people who sound similar to, Chaka than Whitney. The Gospel world is FULL of similar singers with big thick and heavy vocals like Chaka, Jennifer Hudson, Tina, and even Aretha. (Don't believe me, listen to gospel singers). However,its truly rare that you find a singer with the perfect blend of sweetness, smoothness, clearity, AND power that Whitney had. The woman could literally sing several genres of music convincingly unlike most of her contemporaries. As far as Madonna's, Mariah's, Celine's and Barbara's record sells supposidly putting Whitney to shame, I dont know what you're talking about. Whitney sold in around the same ballpark as these other artists with about HALF the albums/material (200 million and counting now that her album sales will increase due to her death). Actually, if you were to calculate the rate at which each of these artists sell (# total albums sold/ # of albums made), Whitney had the highest selling rate out of the four of them and still is the ONLY female with an album in the top ten selling albums of all time. Its not fair to go by raw numbers when the others have clearly put out FAR more output. The simple fact that Whitney's sales only trails the others by 20-40 million and she only produced half their output says WAY more than any raw numbers. If anything, THEY should be put to shame (even though I like select songs from ALL these women)).

Posted by vbabygirl on Wednesday, 03.21.12 @ 14:45pm


http://todayentertainment.today.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2012/03/22/10815850-coroner-whitney-houston-died-of-accidental-drowning

And The Coroner Says - Accidental Drowning, Caused By A Heart Episode, Exacerbated By Cocaine

Atherosclerosis.

Or, as the L.A. coroner called it, atherosclerotic heart disease.

And she was a coke addict.

Posted by Roy on Thursday, 03.22.12 @ 22:43pm


http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/whitney-houston-drowned-with-cocaine-in-her-system-autopsy-reveals-20120322

Whitney Houston Drowned with Cocaine in Her System, Autopsy Reveals
Report says singer died of accidental drowning, but drugs were a factor

By Rolling Stone
March 22, 2012 6:39 PM ET

Whitney Houston's official cause of death was accidental drowning, according to an initial report from the L.A. County Coroner released Thursday, but a heart condition and cocaine use were also contributing factors.

The autopsy report reveals that Houston suffered from atherosclerotic heart disease, or a hardening of the arteries. The amount of cocaine found in her system will not be made public until the coroner's final report is released in two weeks.

Marijuana, Xanax, Benadryl and the muscle relaxant Flexeril were also found in Houston's system, but those drugs did not contribute to her death, the report says.

Houston's family has issued a public statement in reponse to the autopsy findings through Patricia Houston, the singer's sister-in-law and former manager. "We are saddened to learn of the toxicology results, although we are glad to now have closure," reads the statement.

Houston died at the Beverly Hills Hotel on February 11th, one day prior to the Grammy Awards.

Posted by Roy on Thursday, 03.22.12 @ 22:51pm



@ JR..Your comment is garbage. Don't put Houston in the same category as Elvis or Aretha. They didn't need to write their songs to be considered as an artist. They *created* music. They took songs (already written) and interpreted them in ways that were unheard of at the time.
But now at a time in which *microwaved talent* rules the industry, the ability to write songs slightly edges one artist over another (thus making your humbly opinionated "unregarded" Carey a far superior artist to Houston)
I personally believe that since Clive Davis has already been inducted as a non-performer, Houston's consideration would be redundant. Davis WAS the force behind Houston's entire career. He told her what to sing, how to sing it, how walk, talk, sit etc. A gifted vocalist, no doubt, but nothing much else to be considered revolutionary. Not a single music video, dance move, costume, physical characteristic, etc. that would match or surpass
BUT - would I like to see her inducted in an organization that under represents women? Sure why not, because god only knows, after Debbie Harry, Crissy Hynde, Stevie Knicks and Patti Smith, there aren't many REAL female rock singers anymore. And frankly, I'd rather the Hall branch out to GOOD pop music rather than third-tier "rock" bands. But after the possible consideration of Houston and/or Carey, that's it for me. I draw the line though with the absolutely terrible in all ways conceivable, Celine Dion. And don't get me started on the 20-year-olds that are out today.

Posted by BH on Friday, 03.30.12 @ 09:59am


@BH "Your comment is garbage. Don't put Houston in the same category as Elvis or Aretha. They didn't need to write their songs to be considered as an artist. They *created* music. They took songs (already written) and interpreted them in ways that were unheard of at the time."- So did Whitney. Saving All My Love for You, Greatest Love of All, For the Love of You, Just the Lonely Talking Again, Hold Me, All the Man that I Need, I Will Always Love You, I'm Every Woman, I Believe in You and Me...all her own interpretations. She sang them the way SHE wanted to sing them.

"Davis WAS the force behind Houston's entire career. He told her what to sing, how to sing it, how walk, talk, sit etc."- Uh no. Clive did NOT tell her how to sing. As Whitney said herself "No one told me how to sing". He and Whitney would sit down and CHOOSE the songs for her album. Totally different from telling her what to sing.

Not revoluntionary? LOL this woman is the most influential vocalist of the past 25 years. She created a gospel-imbued pop singing style that everybody's been drawing on since. This woman knocked down so many barriers for African-American artists, female artists, R&B artists and pop artists. The first black female to get heavy MTV rotation, the first female artist to debut at #1 on the album charts, the first female artist to score a diamond album, seven consecutive #1s in a row. She crossed over in such a way that black female artists didn't need to "cross over" anymore.
if you're gonna look at something, look at it right.

Posted by AHND on Friday, 04.13.12 @ 18:09pm


Oh, and every pop diva has been "created" in her image. She set the standard for singing for the past 25 years, contributed to the growth and commercial strength of black artists and their music. She's a pioneer. And she deserves to be
Not one female SINGER (and I stress "singer", so Madonna isn't counted) has been as praised as Houston in the past three decades. Why? Houston is by far the most influential. She set the benchmark, and blazed a phenomenal trail.

Posted by AHND on Friday, 04.13.12 @ 18:12pm


@AHND

You just categorized Whitney Houston with Elvis Presley. Enough said.

And I stand by what I stated. But you're giving her too much credit. "Broke racial barriers"? Please. If you're talking about the modern pop era, Diana Ross, Donna Summer and Michael Jackson were celebrated lightyears before Houston's career was conceived (by Clive Davis). And don't get me started on the Aretha's, Dinah's, Ella's, artists that predate rock music altogether. You are overrating somebody with too much credit while ignoring those who truly deserve it.

Now, as far as induction. I think she has a slim shot, but highly unlikely. Madonna she is not (I will be using Madonna as a comparative reference). Female pop singers have to work THAT much harder and garner THAT much more acclaim to become a serious contender. Alas, I've always thought that Houston's peak could be compared with someone's like Madonna, but notable differences are *musicianship and *longevity. Watch Madonna's induction video - which interpolates clips of virtually all stages of her career, past and present - and ask yourself if such can be replicated with Houston. I certainly cannot. Her recent career has unfortunately been riddled with lacklustre attempts at musical "comebacks" and most especially personal controversies. Simply put: Houston lacks far too much musical (outside of singing) credibility, and an unsustained career are the boulders that block Houston from the Hall.

Posted by BH on Wednesday, 04.18.12 @ 13:55pm


"You just categorized Whitney Houston with Elvis Presley. Enough said."- I don't think so. What a cop-out.

Funny how you said Diana, Donna and MJ were "celebrated" in response to my claim that Houston broke racial barriers, but I wasn't talking about celebration, was I? No.
I'm not giving her too much credit, you're giving her too little.
Whitney was the FIRST female artist to sell 10 million copies of an album in America ALONE. WHITNEY was the first black female artist to receive heavy rotation on MTV. WHITNEY gained FAR more worldwide success than Donna AND Diana. WHITNEY is the ONLY artist to score seven consecutive #1 hits. And she, as a BLACK pop/R&B female artist did that by topping two of the biggest white male rock bands. So yes, she DID break barriers, and it's a HUGE DEAL.
And like I said, she's the most influential vocalist of the past three decades, combining pop sheen with gospel vocality.
So she didn't need to write her songs, she interpreted them in ways no one ever heard them before with her own singing style, which has been the standard and school for almost 30 years.
And Aretha did not predate rock music. Rock and roll was already established when Aretha came onto the scene in 1961 and when she hit it big in 1967.
Houston's musicianship lies in her singing and her ability to transcend any song she given.

Your entire argument has been based not on fact, but on what YOU think is "good enough". Sorry, that doesn't cut it. The FACTS show that the accomplishments Houston achieved were and are extremely important in the evolution and history of music.

Posted by AHND on Tuesday, 04.24.12 @ 23:57pm


Now Ross, Summer and Jackson are certainly people who greatly helped to break down racial barriers (Jackson and Ross especially), but so has Houston, which is why she's been credited for such since her debut. For the modern era, Jackson and Houston KNOCKED the entire barriers down, not just opened the doors. They achieved so much worldwide success that other singers were able to achieve the same after them. Houston became the benchmark in vocal performance, Jackson in dance performance. And they STILL are the standard till this day.

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 04.25.12 @ 00:01am


One more thing: Ross, Summer and Jackson were "celebrated" before Houston because their careers started before Houston. And that in no way diminishes HER own achievements. So that was a weak "argument".

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 04.25.12 @ 00:30am


One, it kind of does diminish your argument because they did, essentially, what Houston did first, actual numbers notwithstanding.

Two, album sales numbers don't make a strong argument for three reasons: one, single sales should also be included to get an accurate picture of an artist's success; two, the switch from singles to albums as the paradigm means of purchasing music was nowhere near as far along during the heydays of Jackson, Summer, and Ross as they were by the time Houston came along, so you have to account for that; three, album sales are not, have never really been, nor will ever really be case-clinching criteria for induction into the Hall Of Fame. The NomCom by and large don't care about sales. They use it as evidence if it's an artist they like and want to push through, but if they aren't passionate enough about an artist, no amount of record sales, singles and albums combined, will ever light the fire for them.

Also, being the first female artist to do this or that honestly means diddly-squat. If you're truly equal opportunity, you don't keep separate records and titles based on gender.

All that said, I think the hype surrounding her death will more than knock down the final barrier and will get her into the Hall in 2013. And I'm fine with that. All in all, I think she's a worthy inductee. Not a glaring omission, but sure as hell more deserving than Madonna, as far as I'm concerned.

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 04.25.12 @ 14:29pm


Oh yeah, a fourth reason: sales have absolutely no connection to innovation when it comes to music, and a arguable connection at best to influence (a connection I generally defend more often than not actually), which are actually pretty important when discussing an artist's merits.

But again, she'll make it, and I'm fine with that.

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 04.25.12 @ 14:33pm


"One, it kind of does diminish your argument because they did, essentially, what Houston did first, actual numbers notwithstanding."- No, Whitney did what she DID. That's why SHE'S the one with those accomplishments. By being the first black female artist to crossover the way she did is HUGE. Diana didn't do it, nor did Donna. Whitney did.

See, my focus wasn't on the sales, but naming accomplishments she holds which allowed black artists to experience a wider commercial field and audience. THAT'S big.

"Also, being the first female artist to do this or that honestly means diddly-squat"- LOL if you say so.

"Oh yeah, a fourth reason: sales have absolutely no connection to innovation when it comes to music, and a arguable connection at best to influence (a connection I generally defend more often than not actually), which are actually pretty important when discussing an artist's merits."- I know this, which is why I never said "Whitney should be inducted because she sold 200 million records". And I already explained how she's influential: by her combination of pop and gospel vocals into one singing style, she became the standard as well as the most influential singer (I stress "singer") for the past three decades. That's why she's influential. On top of that, so many singers were molded after her "diva image".

And yes, I agree, she's way more deserving than Madonna.

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 04.25.12 @ 14:47pm


"See, my focus wasn't on the sales, but naming accomplishments she holds which allowed black artists to experience a wider commercial field and audience. THAT'S big."

The accomplishments themselves aren't big, and I think the other guy's point was that those other artists (especially Michael Jackson, I think you're using the fact that he was a guy as reason to sidestep his massive accomplishments) opened the door first and did more to get that door open than Whitney. She may or may not have opened that door more degrees than the others (and even that's hard to argue), but she had it easier than the others... not that it was easy for her, but not as hard as it was for some of those others (except Ross who got there pretty much on her back and from stealing from other artists).

-The diva image goes back well before Whitney (see Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin, and even pre-rock)
-most influential singer of the past three decades is easily Mariah Carey (who may have been influenced by Whitney herself, which would actually be a good argument for Whitney)
-Yes, if you're truly equal opp. it doesn't matter what gender you are when you accomplish something... at least it shouldn't. Admittedly, in the music world, it might ought to, but my point is that the history of music has ONE timeline, not a blue timeline for boys and a pink one for girls. Whoever is innovative first is first. Whoever breaks a sales record breaks it first. That's why I generally loathe those kind of modifiers.

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 04.25.12 @ 15:04pm


"The accomplishments themselves aren't big, and I think the other guy's point was that those other artists (especially Michael Jackson, I think you're using the fact that he was a guy as reason to sidestep his massive accomplishments) opened the door first and did more to get that door open than Whitney. She may or may not have opened that door more degrees than the others (and even that's hard to argue), but she had it easier than the others... not that it was easy for her, but not as hard as it was for some of those others (except Ross who got there pretty much on her back and from stealing from other artists)."- I can make the same "argument" for the rest. Michael Jackson had it easier than James Brown or Jackie Wilson. Does that lessen Michael's accomplishments? Not in the slightest. So why would it for Whitney's. And I never sidestepped ANY of Michael's accomplishments. IN FACT, I said "For the modern era, Jackson and Houston KNOCKED the entire barriers down, not just opened the doors." So where's the sidestepping?

"-The diva image goes back well before Whitney (see Diana Ross, Aretha Franklin, and even pre-rock)"- But Whitney's diva image was for the modern era (1980s onwards). And Mariah, Celine etc., all their images were based on HER.

"-most influential singer of the past three decades is easily Mariah Carey (who may have been influenced by Whitney herself, which would actually be a good argument for Whitney)"- Not even close to being true, as Mariah herself has said many times that Whitney was an influence of hers. It's not Mariah at all, but Whitney. SHE was the one who combined pop and gospel into one singing style. From then on, everyone started basing THEIR style on hers.

"Yes, if you're truly equal opp. it doesn't matter what gender you are when you accomplish something... at least it shouldn't. Admittedly, in the music world, it might ought to, but my point is that the history of music has ONE timeline, not a blue timeline for boys and a pink one for girls. Whoever is innovative first is first. Whoever breaks a sales record breaks it first. That's why I generally loathe those kind of modifiers."- It's not about whether it SHOULD OR SHOULDN'T matter, the fact is IT DOES. It's MUCH harder for WOMEN in music, especially BLACK females. Not an opinion, a FACT. That's why Whitney's accomplishments are so important. She crossed over in such a way that allowed black female artists to experience and enjoy even bigger success. It's not about the sales or the hits like you said, true, but about what they SIGNIFY.

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 04.25.12 @ 20:24pm


I think the claims about Houston significance are being exaggerated. Her first album was in 1985. By that time there were quite a few African America women performers who enjoyed significant commercial success, such as Donna Summer, Dione Warwick, and Tina Turner (who had a big comeback in 1984 with the multiplatinum Private Dancer). Aretha Franklin had a platinum album in 1985. And Janet Jackson began her commercial run at about the same time. Plus there were lesser known artists like Stephanie Mills who also enjoyed commercial success in the late 70s-early 80s. Doubtlessly Houston's success had an impact, but maybe not so much as is being claimed. Beyond that she was phenomenally successful.

Posted by astrodog on Thursday, 04.26.12 @ 01:42am


None of those ladies reached the commercial heights Whitney did. And Janet's success came AFTER Whitney's, and she didn't even reach that level. My point is it's not about the numbers themselves, but what they stood for. By reaching that level of success, she opened up an entire audience to black female and R&B artists.
And she is the most influential singer of the past 3 decades. No one fused pop and gospel into one singing style the way she did, and it's been what every vocalist since has been drawing on. Mariah, Celine, Beyonce, Christina, Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, Toni Braxton, Brandy, Kelly Clarkson, Leona Lewis, Jennifer Hudson, Rihanna, Alicia Keys, Jessie J, Jordin Sparks, Jessica Simpson, Monica, Kelly Price, Kelly Rowland, Michelle Williams, Fantasia, Pink, Ciara, LeAnn Rimes, Amerie, Nelly Furtado, Lauryn Hill, Robin Thicke, Tamia, Deborah Cox, Aaliyah, Faith Evans, Melanie Fiona, Katy Perry, Keyshia Cole, Nicole Scherzinger.... all have cited Whitney as a major influence on their artistry (and not all of them have great vocal gifts).

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 04.26.12 @ 12:54pm


Whitney's influence is amazing as well as her record sales and she deserves to be in. and I don't even like her, so i'm not a fanboy saying this..

Posted by GFW on Thursday, 04.26.12 @ 14:06pm


Houston's primary success was in the R&B/pop areas. Other artists were performing in these genres as well as gospel before she ever emerged. Granted she was more commercially successful. Was she the most influential singer of the past three decades? On the one hand hugely successful artists influence what comes later. But nothing that she did was exactly new either. The other artist I cited achieved significant commercial success using the same template. At what point does that commercial success "open doors"? To claim that these other artists achieving gold or platinum success in the years immediately preceding Whitney's emergence (leaving aside successful singers throughout the preceding decades) had no effect seems a bit arbitrary. And Janet broke through commercially in 1986 after two earlier albums. They were essential contemporaries although Whitney broke through a year earlier. And there were certainly other successful singers at that time that predated her, including Streisand (as I shudder to recall) and even Celine Dion who first recorded in 1981.

Posted by astrodog on Thursday, 04.26.12 @ 14:13pm


"To claim that these other artists achieving gold or platinum success in the years immediately preceding Whitney's emergence (leaving aside successful singers throughout the preceding decades) had no effect seems a bit arbitrary."- Funny, I never said that, did I? I said that by attaining the level of success she did, she opened up black artists to a wider audience and to enjoy greater commercial success. And it's true. Whitney had the biggest selling album by a black female at that time (and in fact, she still does). Not Tina, not Janet. Whitney.

By attaining a level of commercial success that is usually only achieved by white male rock bands (at the time, anyway), this gave the industry a new "perspective" (if you must) about the commercial power of black female artists.

By the time Janet's album started to hit its stride, Whitney's album was already certified 5x platinum and had spent several weeks at #1.

Celine Dion didn't break into the English market until 1990.
And yes, of course there were other successful singers who came before her. When did I ever say different? I said Whitney's commercial success broke down barriers for black females in music, not that she was the first successful black female artist or the ONLY successful artist.

Again, it's not about the sales themselves, but what they signify. Here was a black female artist rivaling the biggest white male rock bands and solo artists at the time in terms of success, all based upon her modern diva image and fusion pop-gospel singing style, which ended up influencing every vocalist after her debut.

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 04.26.12 @ 22:48pm


By no means am I saying that Whitney should be inducted due to her commercial success. Hell no. Far from it. As we can all agree, commercial success doesn't mean you're influential or musically brilliant. However, Whitney's commercial success was a result of her unique, brilliant vocal artistry and graceful diva image, both of which were extremely influential on artists following her. The commercial success, being a result of these things, opened up black female artists to a bigger audience and success.

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 04.26.12 @ 22:53pm


Well the Supremes had 12 number one songs, just to cite one example. Did that rival white male rock acts? And when you have Donna Summer and Tina Turner going multiplatinum before Houston even recorded (and I forgot Diana Ross in 80 and 81), I'm a bit unclear what those barriers supposedly were. Houston was more successful than her antecedents, but being more successful doesn't make you a trailblazer. Just classic fan hyperbole.

Posted by astrodog on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 00:22am


Yes, of course the Supremes rivaled white male rock acts! But the difference is Whitney did that as a SOLO artist.

And Donna Summer had two multiplatinum albums, BOTH were certified 2x platinum AFTER Whitney's, back in December 1993. According to the RIAA website, none of Diana's albums have been certified multiplatinum.

Tina's the only black female artist to go multiplatinum before Whitney, and by March of 1986, Whitney had already caught up with her, surpassed her by May of 1986, and had flown by her in February 1987. Private Dancer got its final certification of 5x platinum by September of 1987. By that time, Whitney's debut was already certified 8x platinum AND her sophomore release was certified 4x platinum.

With Whitney, she CONTINUED to score MULTIPLE multiplatinum successes. The females before her did NOT, however the females AFTER her did.

Posted by AHND on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 10:36am


Whitney has/had an amazing voice. It was absolutely amazing. But honestly, that's about it. She didn't write anything. I'm torn and I'm sure the nominating committee will be torn because of her death, but I just don't see her getting inducted now. Maybe years down the road, but not now.

Sorry.

Posted by Cal on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 11:03am


Whitney's sales in the millions will have nothing to do with her induction.

Sales - sales - sales. What else? Her voice was undeniable, but what else?

Posted by Mike on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 11:10am


"Whitney's sales in the millions will have nothing to do with her induction.

Sales - sales - sales. What else? Her voice was undeniable, but what else?:"

The fact that she combined pop and gospel into one singing style and became the most influential vocalist of the past three decades. She revitalized R&B music and pop powerballadry, and brought gospel-imbued vocals to such a worldwide level. And again, it's NOT about the sales, but the fact that they stood for something.
THAT'S what else.

Posted by AHND on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 12:02pm


Its a No.

Posted by Scott on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 12:29pm


You really think the hall doesn't look at sales?

why do you think no alt acts have been inducted?

Posted by GFW on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 12:55pm


Private dancer was certified as 4x platinum in 1985 and 5x in 1986. You are correct about Donna Summer; she had three platinum certified albums before 1980 but no multi-platinum albums until 1993. However she did have three No. 1 albums in 1978-80 and 4 number songs in that period.

Part of what you see with the lack of multi-platinum albums before 1984 despite very high charting position is the effect of MTV. It was an important reason why artists like Madonna, Houston and Janet Jackson blew up commercially. But a platinum album in the pre-MTV era was nothing to sneeze at.

Posted by astrodog on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 12:57pm


I said this before on this thread, but I do think that sometimes an artist's commercial success is so significant that you cannot overlook them. I for one definitely take commercial success into account. I certainly don't think it should be ignored. I mean, does GNR get inducted if Appetite wasn't 18x platinum?

Posted by astrodog on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 13:02pm


"Private dancer was certified as 4x platinum in 1985 and 5x in 1986."- Actually it was certified 5x platinum on September 9th, 1987 (http://tinypic.com/r/2cmxbx1/6)

"Part of what you see with the lack of multi-platinum albums before 1984 despite very high charting position is the effect of MTV. It was an important reason why artists like Madonna, Houston and Janet Jackson blew up commercially. But a platinum album in the pre-MTV era was nothing to sneeze at."- And you're right about that. However, as I said, post-Whitney, more black female artists were getting many multiplatinum albums. And Whitney was one of the first and FEW black artists to receive heavy MTV rotation, so that just strengthens her legacy and impact.

Posted by AHND on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 17:59pm


"I for one definitely take commercial success into account. I certainly don't think it should be ignored."

Same, but only when it's big that you can't ignore it. I'll consider it, but with conditions:

1. There are a few other things I take it into account first: The pillars of Innovation, Influence* and Perpetuation/Impact. I look at these then sales.

2. If Commercial Success is the only thing an artist has going for them then they should not be inducted. Period. Whitney had massive success and other things, therefore she should eventually get in.

*I'm aware you're skeptical towards influence, Astro, and you're right to be; it's thrown around far too often. Which is why I'm careful about which artists I apply it to. They only get the tag when it's clearly true.

Posted by Sam on Friday, 04.27.12 @ 19:50pm


"Not even close to being true, as Mariah herself has said many times that Whitney was an influence of hers. It's not Mariah at all, but Whitney. SHE was the one who combined pop and gospel into one singing style. From then on, everyone started basing THEIR style on hers."--AHND

So your argument is that the student can never surpass the teacher? Really? Mariah surpassed Whitney a myriad times over. Mariah influenced more people than Whitney ever has. And NO, they are not transitively influenced by Whitney because Whitney influenced Mariah. That's an absurd line of logic that needs to stop.

-Blending pop and gospel. Two words: Sam Cooke. First woman to do it effectively? I'd say Darlene Love. First woman to do it effectively and commercially successfully? Aretha Franklin.

-Diva image is actually pretty irrelevant. That's an image, not a musical style. You can use it to a degree, but the diva image itself is not a musical aspect, which is all that matters.

-what they SIGNIFY... be very careful using this. A huge, HUGE part of Whitney's success is due not to her hot R&B stuff you could dance to, but the slower, adult contemporary pap like "I Will Always Love You," and "One Moment In Time," (and I like One Moment In Time), but the Hall, from where it sits now, does not look very favorably upon those whose main appeal is older white people. Her success could be easily interpreted to say "You'll have huge success if you adapt your singing to be the sappiest bland pop possible." You've got to remember what music actually got her those huge sales.... and it's not the kind of music the Hall likes to honor (see: the Carpenters)

"I said this before on this thread, but I do think that sometimes an artist's commercial success is so significant that you cannot overlook them. I for one definitely take commercial success into account."--astrodog

Same here, except if a commercial success is so huge it can't be ignored, then where's Pat Boone? His singles' sales success in the mid-to-late '50s was only rivaled by Elvis's (and maybe Sinatra's too).

"You really think the hall doesn't look at sales?

why do you think no alt acts have been inducted?"--GFW

Tom Waits isn't alt to you? R.E.M. and U2 both had huge commercial success but they're both icons of the 80's alt scene as well.

And yeah be careful with the influence tag. A good number of the artists AHND says were influenced by Whitney read like a rap sheet explaining why she shouldn't get in. You wanna make sure you influence Hall-favorable artists too (again, Mariah Carey)

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 13:45pm


"So your argument is that the student can never surpass the teacher? Really? Mariah surpassed Whitney a myriad times over. Mariah influenced more people than Whitney ever has. And NO, they are not transitively influenced by Whitney because Whitney influenced Mariah. That's an absurd line of logic that needs to stop."- This is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. That in NO way was my argument. I said Whitney was the most influential female of the past 25 years because SHE is and that Mariah didn't influence her, it was the other way around.
Mariah influenced more people than Whitney ever has? PROVE it.
"Mariah surpassed Whitney a myriad times over"- LOL how exactly?

"-Blending pop and gospel. Two words: Sam Cooke. First woman to do it effectively? I'd say Darlene Love. First woman to do it effectively and commercially successfully? Aretha Franklin."- Sam Cooke's singing style was pure soul. Same goes for Aretha. Darlene was pure pop in her style. WHITNEY Houston was NOT. WHITNEY's sense of rhythm, use of vocal effects like melisma, wails, whoops, falsetto, pure gospel. But her sweet melodic approach was pop. No one else had done that BUT her.

"Diva image is actually pretty irrelevant. That's an image, not a musical style. You can use it to a degree, but the diva image itself is not a musical aspect, which is all that matters."- No, it really isn't. Madonna's, her entire legend is practically based on what she did for female IMAGE in music, and she got inducted, so...

Making such ridiculous statements like "Mariah has influenced more people than Whitney ever has" just makes you sound more like a fanatic, especially when you don't provide any proof.

Posted by AHND on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 14:13pm


"-what they SIGNIFY... be very careful using this. A huge, HUGE part of Whitney's success is due not to her hot R&B stuff you could dance to, but the slower, adult contemporary pap like "I Will Always Love You," and "One Moment In Time," (and I like One Moment In Time), but the Hall, from where it sits now, does not look very favorably upon those whose main appeal is older white people. Her success could be easily interpreted to say "You'll have huge success if you adapt your singing to be the sappiest bland pop possible." You've got to remember what music actually got her those huge sales.... and it's not the kind of music the Hall likes to honor (see: the Carpenters)"-

The type of music that got Whitney there was pop AND R&B. You Give Good Love, Saving All My Love, How Will I Know, Greatest Love of All, It's Not Right But It's Okay, Exhale, My Love is Your Love, I Have Nothing, I'm Every Woman, I Will Always Love You, I Wanna Dance with Somebody, Run to You, So Emotional, Didn't We Almsot Have it All, Where Do Broken Hearts Go, All the Man that I Need...all these songs are either pop-oriented or R&B-oriented.

And what YOU think about Whitney's music is what's irrelevant. There's no way to objectively "measure" the "sappiness" of someone's music.
The fact is Whitney Houston's unique singing style allowed her to become the most influential female singer of the past 25 years or so. Not Mariah, Celine, Toni, Mary, Beyonce, Christina. Whitney.
As Mariah Carey said "None of us would sound the same if Aretha Franklin hadn't ever put out a record, or Whitney Houston hadn't".
Whitney was who record executives would be telling their female artists to sing and look like. Whitney changed the way ballads were sung. Whitney changed the way talented female vocalists were marketed. Her influence goes beyond changing the way people sang.

Posted by AHND on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 14:22pm


"This is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. That in NO way was my argument. I said Whitney was the most influential female of the past 25 years because SHE is and that Mariah didn't influence her, it was the other way around."

-Right, I got that Whitney influenced Mariah, but I'm saying that--to borrow from scripture: Whitney has influenced her thousands, and Mariah her tens of thousands. And how has she surpassed, by breaking her records. Mariah's the only artist to have a number one hit in every year of the nineties, she's had more number ones than just about everybody (I'm not sure if the Beatles still have more than her or not), she's spent more weeks at number one that just about everybody (I think she recently broke Elvis's record in that regard.) She continued to reinvent her sound, whereas once Whitney went AC, she stayed AC.

"Sam Cooke's singing style was pure soul. Same goes for Aretha. Darlene was pure pop in her style. WHITNEY Houston was NOT. WHITNEY's sense of rhythm, use of vocal effects like melisma, wails, whoops, falsetto, pure gospel. But her sweet melodic approach was pop. No one else had done that BUT her."--

Now THIS is ridiculous. Twistin' The Night Away, Chain Gang; That's It, I Quit, I'm Moving On, as well as other records from Cooke are DEFINITELY pop as well as soul. As for Aretha...her cover of Spanish Harlem, let's not forget Who's Zoomin' Who and I Knew You Were Waiting For Me... those don't have pop elements? Darlene's voice was soulful. She had the pop of Spector's production behind her, but her powerful voice was also very soulful. Martha Reeves of Martha And The Vandellas has a similar pop-soul voice.

"No, it really isn't. Madonna's, her entire legend is practically based on what she did for female IMAGE in music, and she got inducted, so..."

And I maintain that Madonna was a bad induction call, too.

"And what YOU think about Whitney's music is what's irrelevant. There's no way to objectively "measure" the "sappiness" of someone's music."

But what the Hall thinks about her music is not. And I'm telling you, from past experience, they don't look favorably on heavily-AC records. The Carpenters aren't in, the Association isn't, hell, Sinatra's not even in as an Early Influence yet. I still think Whitney will get in. But it'll be for songs like I Wanna Dance With Somebody Who Loves Me.... NOT for I Will Always Love You.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 15:10pm


"Whitney has influenced her thousands, and Mariah her tens of thousands."- Again, PROVE IT. Making such stupid statements like this are not FACT. Nor does it make it fact. "Mariah has her tens of thousands, Whitney has her hundreds of thousands". See what I did there?

"And how has she surpassed, by breaking her records. Mariah's the only artist to have a number one hit in every year of the nineties, she's had more number ones than just about everybody (I'm not sure if the Beatles still have more than her or not), she's spent more weeks at number one that just about everybody (I think she recently broke Elvis's record in that regard.) She continued to reinvent her sound, whereas once Whitney went AC, she stayed AC."- That has NOTHING to do with her influence on other artists at ALL.

"Now THIS is ridiculous. Twistin' The Night Away, Chain Gang; That's It, I Quit, I'm Moving On, as well as other records from Cooke are DEFINITELY pop as well as soul. As for Aretha...her cover of Spanish Harlem, let's not forget Who's Zoomin' Who and I Knew You Were Waiting For Me... those don't have pop elements? Darlene's voice was soulful. She had the pop of Spector's production behind her, but her powerful voice was also very soulful. Martha Reeves of Martha And The Vandellas has a similar pop-soul voice."- See, I didn't say "pop-soul" SONGS, I said "pop-soul" SINGING. Not the same thing.

It's not just about having a soulful-sounding voice, but soulful SINGING. Whitney's SINGING recalled the African-American church and it ALSO recalled the pop sheen and sensibility of singers like Streisand and Diana Ross. Yes, Martha Reeves and Darlene had powerful, soulful voices, so did Whitney's cousin Dionne Warwick, however, their popular singing wasn't noted for their gospel roots.

For Whitney's ENTIRE career, usually the first thing noted about her voice are its gospel roots. Not the same w/ Dionne, Martha or Darlene. In fact, from the beginning of her career, Whitney was noted for having a unique pop-soul singing style:

"Ms. Houston may be a new kind of pop singer for the video era: an encyclopedic, restless virtuoso. She has absorbed the soul and pop styles of everyone from Aretha Franklin to Barbra Streisand to Diana Ross to Al Green; she can deliver a gospel rasp, a velvety coo, a floating soprano and a cheerleader's whoop."- http://www.nytimes.com/1987/09/10/arts/pop-whitney-houston.html

Posted by AHND on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 15:21pm


"And I maintain that Madonna was a bad induction call, too."- It doesn't matter. Madonna was inducted mostly due to her influence of the female image in music. That's where her legacy lies. So what you think about her induction call is irrelevant.

"But what the Hall thinks about her music is not. And I'm telling you, from past experience, they don't look favorably on heavily-AC records. The Carpenters aren't in, the Association isn't, hell, Sinatra's not even in as an Early Influence yet. I still think Whitney will get in. But it'll be for songs like I Wanna Dance With Somebody Who Loves Me.... NOT for I Will Always Love You."- Many people aren't in! Darlene Love used to sing backup for Dionne and Darlene's been inducted, whereas Dionne hasn't! Please...
And I really don't care what kind of songs will get her in the Hall. That's not my argument, nor a major concern of mine.

Posted by AHND on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 15:25pm


"And how has she surpassed, by breaking her records."- LOL now that's funny. Because Mariah didn't break 7 consecutive #1s, or most time spent atop the Billboard 200 by a female artist. She wasn't the first female to debut atop the Billboard 200 w/ an album, nor was she the first female to score a 10x platinum album. Mariah doesn't hold the records for the best-selling single by a female artist or the best-selling album by a female artist.
I really could go on about Whitney's chart record achievements, but I won't, because there's no point.

Posted by AHND on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 15:29pm


"She continued to reinvent her sound, whereas once Whitney went AC, she stayed AC."- Now this is false. Her album I'm Your Baby Tonight was R&B, The Preacher's Wife was gospel, My Love is Your Love was R&B and hip-hop. Her first two albums were pop-soul, The Bodyguard was pop/R&B, I Look to You was pop/R&B, Just Whitney was R&B. And between, she had influences of jazz and rock, did a latin-pop duet w/ Enrique Iglesias, sang showtunes in Cinderella. Plus, AC isn't a musical genre. It's a NICHE. You can have AC pop, AC R&B, AC hip-hop, AC rock etc. So....

Posted by AHND on Saturday, 04.28.12 @ 15:51pm


"Again, PROVE IT. Making such stupid statements like this are not FACT. Nor does it make it fact. "Mariah has her tens of thousands, Whitney has her hundreds of thousands". See what I did there?"

And where are your facts? I could easily point out that Mariah's influence is evident in the likes of Christina Aguilera, Mandy Moore, Jessica Simpson, Beyonce, and even Alicia Keys.

"That has NOTHING to do with her influence on other artists at ALL."

But everything to do with how Mariah has surpassed Whitney in just about every other facet. And while it is a thready connection, you can't do all of that and not have a ton of influence too.

"See, I didn't say "pop-soul" SONGS, I said "pop-soul" SINGING. Not the same thing."

What do you think made them pop-soul songs?

"Yes, Martha Reeves and Darlene had powerful, soulful voices, so did Whitney's cousin Dionne Warwick, however, their popular singing wasn't noted for their gospel roots."

Oh yes they were. Darlene had trouble getting noticed at all, mind you, due to Spector's doings, but you listen to "Today I Met The Boy I'm Gonna Marry", "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)" and others, and it's powerfully obvious that she started out in the church. The power and soul of that voice comes from gospel roots. As for Martha Reeves, good grief, she drew on her southern gospel-soul roots for songs like "Honey Chile", "I'm Ready For Love", and "Dancing In The Street" isn't just a call for a block party, but for a general amnesty across barriers of all kinds, a call motivated by gospel principles.

Dionne Warwick, well, yeah, I don't even consider her music to be soul at all.

"For Whitney's ENTIRE career, usually the first thing noted about her voice are its gospel roots. Not the same w/ Dionne, Martha or Darlene. In fact, from the beginning of her career, Whitney was noted for having a unique pop-soul singing style."

If you can't notice Martha's or Darlene's gospel roots, get your ears checked. They're plain as day. Whitney's voice WAS unique--because of its timbre, tone color, etc. But she was not the first and only one with a hybrid pop-soul singing style.

"It doesn't matter. Madonna was inducted mostly due to her influence of the female image in music. That's where her legacy lies. So what you think about her induction call is irrelevant."

Be that as it may, the point is that doing the same thing a second time for the same reasons still won't make it the right thing to do. Fortunately, Whitney has a hell of a lot more in her favor than just the diva image. But that should never be the focal point. "They did it for Madonna" is not a valid reason to do it for Whitney.

"Many people aren't in! Darlene Love used to sing backup for Dionne and Darlene's been inducted, whereas Dionne hasn't! Please..."

Dionne Warwick doesn't belong in. Her music is blase schmaltz pop (largely from the trite pens of Bachrach and David) that gets considered R&B/soul strictly because she's Black. Plain and simple. Her music is not worthy of inducting Warwick. Darlene does belong in, and thankfully she's in.

"LOL now that's funny. Because Mariah didn't break 7 consecutive #1s, or most time spent atop the Billboard 200 by a female artist. She wasn't the first female to debut atop the Billboard 200 w/ an album, nor was she the first female to score a 10x platinum album. Mariah doesn't hold the records for the best-selling single by a female artist or the best-selling album by a female artist.
I really could go on about Whitney's chart record achievements, but I won't, because there's no point."

You're right, there's no point. Because you can't "take away" records that begin with the qualifier "first". I said she has surpassed most of Whitney's records, because she has. More #1 singles, more weeks at number one, more commercial success during her first decade as a hitmaker than Whitney had during her first decade. Consecutive #1s means nothing because it's almost more important to look at the songs that didn't. That's important substance below the surface. A single album holding a record (and even then it only becomes a record because you have to add so many qualifiers to get it) honestly isn't as important as the CUMULATIVE effort. The whole is what's important.

"Plus, AC isn't a musical genre. It's a NICHE. You can have AC pop, AC R&B, AC hip-hop, AC rock etc. So...."

That's splitting hairs and you know it, but to address it, the point is that she made her music to appeal to the soon-to-be-bluehair crowds, and with their higher disposable income, they rewarded her for it, and she didn't deviate very far from it, whereas Mariah had to continue to appeal to a fanbase that does shift heavily as it ages (very much unlike the AC fanbase), and as such has had to keep reinventing herself.


In closing, I'm not saying Whitney doesn't belong in or that she won't get in (and frankly, you should care about what kind of songs get her in, because if she hadn't died, she'd continue to be on the back burner for a much longer time), but you continue to act as if the case for her is bulletproof, flawless. It simply isn't. If you can't address the issues where they are, then you're merely a rabid fan blindly waving your symbol of allegiance for an artist.

Posted by Philip on Sunday, 04.29.12 @ 18:53pm


"And where are your facts? I could easily point out that Mariah's influence is evident in the likes of Christina Aguilera, Mandy Moore, Jessica Simpson, Beyonce, and even Alicia Keys"-

How about the fact that I've already named the people who have cited Whitney as a major influence? I could do it again:
Mariah, Celine, Beyonce, Christina, Lady Gaga, Britney Spears, Toni Braxton, Brandy, Kelly Clarkson, Leona Lewis, Jennifer Hudson, Rihanna, Alicia Keys, Fergie, Jessie J, Adele, Jordin Sparks, Jessica Simpson, Monica, Kelly Price, Kelly Rowland, Michelle Williams, Fantasia, Pink, Ciara, LeAnn Rimes, Amerie, Nelly Furtado, Lauryn Hill, Robin Thicke, Tamia, Deborah Cox, Keri Hilson, Aaliyah, Faith Evans, Melanie Fiona, Katy Perry, Keyshia Cole, Nicole Scherzinger, Shanice, Taylor Dane, Lara Fabian, Mary Mary, Corinne Bailey Ray, Jill Scott, Ledisi, Nicki Minaj, India Arie.

Even the lead female singer from The Band Perry cited Whitney as an influence. Adam Lambert and even Adam Levine said that Whitney was an influence. Whitney's so influential she touches artists of completely different sounds and styles to hers.

"But everything to do with how Mariah has surpassed Whitney in just about every other facet. And while it is a thready connection, you can't do all of that and not have a ton of influence too."-

Uh, no. Once again, Mariah didn't break 7 consecutive #1s, or most time spent atop the Billboard 200 by a female artist. She wasn't the first female to debut atop the Billboard 200 w/ an album, nor was she the first female to score a 10x platinum album. Mariah doesn't hold the records for the best-selling single by a female artist or the best-selling album by a female artist. Whitney, however, holds all those things, so for you to claim Mariah "surpassed her in every other facet" is incorrect, especially when Whitney holds a lot of FIRSTS. I really could go ON AND ON about Whitney's records, but again, there's no point.

Chart records are first and foremost a reflection of the MASSES and what THEY'RE buying and LIKING. They're not a reflection of what the industry believes is influential. Whitney and Mariah are influential because of their singing, not because they broke this record or that record.

"What do you think made them pop-soul songs?"-

The fact that soul music was the POPULAR music of THAT time.

"Oh yes they were. Darlene had trouble getting noticed at all, mind you, due to Spector's doings, but you listen to "Today I Met The Boy I'm Gonna Marry", "Christmas (Baby Please Come Home)" and others, and it's powerfully obvious that she started out in the church."-

Why do you constantly keep on referring to what YOU think is obvious? That wasn't my argument. MY argument was that whenever Darlene is mentioned, her gospel roots in singing are not noted/rarely noted. If you ever read an Aretha article or a Whitney article, the gospel in their vocals are noted CONSTANTLY (ex. "Aretha brought to soul music a ferocious gospel singing style"; "Houston combined church-imbued pipes with a commercial sensibility that brought her tremendous popular success"). Darlene not so much. THAT'S my point.

"As for Martha Reeves, good grief, she drew on her southern gospel-soul roots for songs like "Honey Chile", "I'm Ready For Love", and "Dancing In The Street" isn't just a call for a block party, but for a general amnesty across barriers of all kinds, a call motivated by gospel principles."-

I said gospel SINGING, not gospel MESSAGE or PRINCIPLES. So your point means nowt.

"If you can't notice Martha's or Darlene's gospel roots, get your ears checked. They're plain as day. Whitney's voice WAS unique--because of its timbre, tone color, etc. But she was not the first and only one with a hybrid pop-soul singing style."-

I said "Darlene and Martha aren't noted for their gospel roots in their singing", not "I don't notice their gospel roots". You need to differentiate between the two. You also need to differentiate between voice and singing. They're not the same thing. Martha and Darlene have voices one would find typical of the black singer: earthy timbres, throaty bellows. Whitney Houston had a voice of startling clarity and purity. And her SINGING was unique that she would caress a melody similar to a Diana Ross or a Barbra Streisand, but her sense of rhythm, use of melisma, belt etc., that was GOSPEL. But even with her gospel embellishments, her melodic delivery was very clean, as common in pop music. No other singer combined the two like that, which is why Whitney was noted for having such a unique pop-soul/pop-gospel singing style for her ENTIRE career, and the others weren't.

"Be that as it may, the point is that doing the same thing a second time for the same reasons still won't make it the right thing to do. Fortunately, Whitney has a hell of a lot more in her favor than just the diva image. But that should never be the focal point. "They did it for Madonna" is not a valid reason to do it for Whitney."-

Where did I even MAKE that argument? My point of bringing up Madonna's image was to show that such things are OBVIOUSLY taken into account, not that "Because they did it for Madge, they should do it for Whitney too". Good grief. Learn to read my posts carefully before responding.

"I said she has surpassed most of Whitney's records, because she has. More #1 singles, more weeks at number one, more commercial success during her first decade as a hitmaker than Whitney had during her first decade."-

LOL! You say Mariah has surpassed most of Whitney's records and you name three. Wow!
#1- Mariah Carey started at the beginning of the 90s and released 9 albums in that entire decade. Whitney started in the MIDDLE of the 80s and released only TWO albums that decade. Thus, Mariah released MORE singles and sold MORE albums.
#2- Why didn't Mariah break these records of Whitney's: Best-selling female single of all time, best-selling female album of all time, best-selling debut by a female artist, more weeks at #1 on the Billboard 200 album charts. And let's not even include the amount of FIRSTS Whitney set that can never be broken, because she was the FIRST to do them (first female to enter the album charts at #1, first artist to ever sell 1 million in a week etc.)
So much for Mariah surpassing "most" of Whitney's records.

"Consecutive #1s means nothing because it's almost more important to look at the songs that didn't. That's important substance below the surface. A single album holding a record (and even then it only becomes a record because you have to add so many qualifiers to get it) honestly isn't as important as the CUMULATIVE effort. The whole is what's important."-

Oh boy. I love your hypocrisy. You named Mariah's record of having the most #1 singles, then when I name Whitney's record of having the most consecutive #1s, then HER record suddenly mean nothing, because they're not as important as "cumulative efforts?" So why did you even MENTION the fact that Mariah holds the most 1s in the first place? If it's (according to YOUR words) almost more important to look at the ones that DIDN'T? Are Mariah #1 songs the ONLY ones she released? No. She released even more songs that DIDN'T go to #1, so by your logic, that record also means NOTHING, because it's not as important as her cumulative effort. See what I did there? I'm only going by what YOU said.

"That's splitting hairs and you know it, but to address it, the point is that she made her music to appeal to the soon-to-be-bluehair crowds, and with their higher disposable income, they rewarded her for it, and she didn't deviate very far from it, whereas Mariah had to continue to appeal to a fanbase that does shift heavily as it ages (very much unlike the AC fanbase), and as such has had to keep reinventing herself."- Uh no. If you want to debate, make sure you state CORRECTLY. It's not splitting hairs, because AC is NOT a genre. So you're wrong. It's not up for debate.
Mariah has had to keep on reinventing herself? Huh? Mariah started out as a pop-soul artist. From Daydream, she started to add more hip-hop and R&B elements to her music, which became fully realized in Butterfly, and R&B/hip-hop is what she's been doing since. Where's the reinventing, except for that ONE time?

"In closing, I'm not saying Whitney doesn't belong in or that she won't get in (and frankly, you should care about what kind of songs get her in, because if she hadn't died, she'd continue to be on the back burner for a much longer time), but you continue to act as if the case for her is bulletproof, flawless."- If you look back at my first comment on here, it never was actually addressed to whether or not Whitney should be inducted. It was in response to what someone had said about her career and influence. So in fact, this whole thing has never been about Whitney's case for induction, just me responding to what people have been stating about her.

"If you can't address the issues where they are, then you're merely a rabid fan blindly waving your symbol of allegiance for an artist."- Says the same person who thought that "Mariah has her tens of thousands" was proof of Mariah's influence being greater than Whitney's, the same person who claimed Mariah has surpassed MOST of Whitney's records, yet only named THREE (and didn't even look at the circumstances surrounding one of them). You're ALSO the same person who has been discrediting records when it's convenient. So much for ME being a rabid fan blindly waving my flag of allegiance.

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 01:00am


Btw, when people discuss artists achieving multiplatinum status, it bears noting that this designation was first created in 1984. The history is explained on RIAA's website:

"The RIAA® Gold® and Platinum® Awards program was launched in 1958 to honor artists and create a standard by which to measure sales of a sound recording.
In the beginning, there was only a Gold® album award for the sale of 500,000 copies. As the industry grew, other awards were developed. The Platinum® award (1,000,000 sold) was created in 1976 and with the advent of the compact disc and the subsequent increase in sales, the Multi-Platinum™ award was created in 1984. In 1999, the RIAA® launched the Diamond® Awards, honoring sales of 10 million copies or more of an album or single."

-Remember also that organizations like RIAA did not track album sales and did not automatically certify records. Rather the label would have to pay fee and apply for certification; if it didn't the record would not be certified regardless of sales. It wasn't until more recently that there has been an effort to track sales independently, and even then it's always estimated.
So I think one of the reasons you don't see multiplatinum designated albums pre-1984 despite high chart position is that the designation did not exist. I think this explains why some records that had major sales pre-84 only have a platinum designation.
Anyway, something to keep in mind.

Posted by astrodog on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 07:52am


@astrodog Great point. But you also have to remember that the label also has to provide accounting of shipments for a record to get a new certification. If they can't, well....
And in terms of hits, Diana was the only one scoring a ton of #1s and that was when she was w/ The Supremes (although she scored 6 solo #1s). Whitney matched the Supremes doing it solo.
And before Whitney's album was even MADE, Carole King's Tapestry was regarded as the best-selling album by a female artist. And in the 70s, its certification was gold. So if Carole had the biggest-selling album by a female at that time, and not Aretha, Diana or Donna, then it just proves my point seeing as Whitney was the one who overtook her.

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 10:21am


Gerry Goffin, Carole King's first husband, cowrote "Theme from Mahogany (Do You Know Where You're Going To)" one of Diana's biggest hits with Michael Masser. The team also wrote "Saving All My Love For You" as well as a few songs for Natalie Cole.

Posted by Aaron O'Donnell on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 11:18am


Soul was never the way-dominant style of music at any time. It's always had to compete with teen idol pop, British rock, psychedelia, prog, etc. Those songs were pop-soul because the voices made them that way. I'm sorry I had to point that out to you.

Highest-selling debuts are often a matter of luck, and also mean squat. Look at Milli Vanilli and their debut. That's also why the Best New Artist Grammy means nothing to me.

7 consecutive #1s... it's nice, but as you said, only reflects the masses and their likings at that time. So you can't tout that record and then say "It's just the masses." One or the other. Take your pick.

Posted by Philip on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 21:41pm


Over half those names you've cited have absolutely no evidence of Whitney's influence in their singing. Britney Spears? Please. It's evident that her major influence is Madonna. Rhianna has no gospel in her pop voice. Same with P!nk, Gaga, Leann and a bunch of others. They may have liked her, but she was no influence on them.

Also, "One Sweet Day" holds the record. It was a duet, sure, but full credit goes to both artists on the record.

And no, I wasn't being a hypocrite. I was hauling out equally meaningless statistics to show you that yours were meaningless. I'm glad you got that point.

My point with the diva image is that it shouldn't have mattered for Madonna, and the fact that it did then doesn't mean they should do it now. They did once, they shouldn't do it again. YOU first said that the way she evolved the diva image was extremely important. I'm saying it's not, they made a mistake when they did it for Madge, and they shouldn't do it again.

AC isn't a genre, but Easy Listening is and the AC format (which also has its own major chart in the Billboard publications) is the result of evolution of the Easy Listening genre. That's who Whitney's target audience was. Much like Josh Groban and Michael Buble today.

Mariah started out with a lot of similarly AC-targeted songs. Something like "Heartbreaker" would have been unimaginable from Mariah back then. The fact that she keeps appealing to the fickle teenage young crowd is evidence of her reinventions. Some subtle, some drastic.

"If you look back at my first comment on here, it never was actually addressed to whether or not Whitney should be inducted. It was in response to what someone had said about her career and influence. So in fact, this whole thing has never been about Whitney's case for induction, just me responding to what people have been stating about her."

Fair enough. I agree with you there. But this whole forum is primarily about the Hall Of Fame. You post here, it's generally assumed that's the point you're driving towards.

Posted by Philip on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 21:53pm


"Over half those names you've cited have absolutely no evidence of Whitney's influence in their singing. Britney Spears? Please. It's evident that her major influence is Madonna. Rhianna has no gospel in her pop voice. Same with P!nk, Gaga, Leann and a bunch of others. They may have liked her, but she was no influence on them."-

Wrong again.
LeAnn did a tribute to Whitney and said it right at the beginning: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsZK-8N8FY8

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 23:18pm


Britney on Whitney: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24KB4VewItQ&feature=channel&list=UL#t=44s

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 23:20pm


Gaga talks about Whitney here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wd1aJ0Q_Z3k#t=23s

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 23:21pm


Rihanna calls Whitney one of her idols: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsExkz5vc1M#t=1m39

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 23:22pm


Pink on Whitney Houston: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5nCsMi6wVs&feature=relmfu#t=34s
If you want, I can give more links for proof regarding the others. As I said in a previous post, "Whitney's so influential she touches artists of completely different sounds and styles to hers."

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 23:22pm


"And no, I wasn't being a hypocrite. I was hauling out equally meaningless statistics to show you that yours were meaningless. I'm glad you got that point."-

Yes it does, seeing as how you said "Mariah surpassed Whitney a myriad times over" when I claimed Whitney was more influential. When I asked you for PROOF of Mariah "surpassing" Whitney, that's when you cited Mariah's record statistics. They weren't even in the conversation at that time until YOU brought it up. And if you were hauling out meaningless statistics, why on EARTH would you cite them as PROOF for your claim that Mariah surpassed Whitney a myriad times over? That makes NO SENSE. So for you to now claim that you did it to show that MINE were meaningless when I hadn't even mentioned the records Whitney holds in our conversation, it makes you a LIAR as well as a hypocrite.

"My point with the diva image is that it shouldn't have mattered for Madonna, and the fact that it did then doesn't mean they should do it now. They did once, they shouldn't do it again. YOU first said that the way she evolved the diva image was extremely important. I'm saying it's not, they made a mistake when they did it for Madge, and they shouldn't do it again."-

That wasn't your point at all.
#1- What YOU think should or shouldn't matter is irrelevant. What matters to the Hall is what matters to the Hall, so your personal feelings shouldn't even be discussed because they mean nowt.
#2- You insinuated in your comment that I was using the logic that because they did it for Madge, they should do it for Whitney, when I NEVER ever once claimed anything of the sort. Your exact words were "They did it for Madonna" is not a valid reason to do it for Whitney."

"AC isn't a genre, but Easy Listening is and the AC format (which also has its own major chart in the Billboard publications) is the result of evolution of the Easy Listening genre. That's who Whitney's target audience was. Much like Josh Groban and Michael Buble today."-

Easy Listening is NOT a genre. A genre is a category of music in which musical pieces/songs share conventions in regards to musical form (rhythm, melody, scales, instrumentation, harmony etc.). There is no musical form for "easy listening". It's a NICHE. You can have easy listening pop, easy listening jazz, easy listening rock. ALL GENRES appear on the Easy Listening Charts. So once again, you're WRONG. Songs from all genres have their own NICHES. It doesn't make niches genres themselves.

"Mariah started out with a lot of similarly AC-targeted songs. Something like "Heartbreaker" would have been unimaginable from Mariah back then. The fact that she keeps appealing to the fickle teenage young crowd is evidence of her reinventions. Some subtle, some drastic."-

Mariah's had a teen fanbase since the beginning. Her fanbase is (or was) of ALL ages, hence why she had so many #1 singles. And she's targeted a lot of her singles before Heartbreaker towards teenagers: Someday, Emotions, Dreamlover, Fantasy, Always Be My Baby, Honey.
The fact that Mariah keeps appealing to the fickle teenage crowd is evidence of her NOT constantly reinventing herself because she's been hip-hop oriented since the late 90s, and that STILL hasn't changed. She reinvented herself ONCE. It would be a different matter if each album was geared towards different musical genres, feels and styles, but they've all been hip-hop/R&B oriented since the late 90s. So let's not start rewriting history.

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 23:33pm


"Soul was never the way-dominant style of music at any time. It's always had to compete with teen idol pop, British rock, psychedelia, prog, etc. Those songs were pop-soul because the voices made them that way. I'm sorry I had to point that out to you."-

Uh, no. It was still a POPULAR form of music, right there in the forefront with British rock. In fact, British rock was INFLUENCED by a LOT of soul music. And you had Motown, Stax, and Atlantic with huge artists like Aretha, Ray, Sly and the Family Stone, Otis Redding, Solomon Burke, Ike and Tina, Little Richard, Fats Domino, Temptations, Four Tops, Supremes, Stevie, Gladys Knight and the Pips.

"Highest-selling debuts are often a matter of luck, and also mean squat. Look at Milli Vanilli and their debut. That's also why the Best New Artist Grammy means nothing to me."-

That's great, but I could care less what "this one" or "that one" means to you. That's irrelevant to this.

"7 consecutive #1s... it's nice, but as you said, only reflects the masses and their likings at that time. So you can't tout that record and then say "It's just the masses." One or the other. Take your pick."-

I didn't say "it's only just the masses". I said these records are a reflection of what the masses like and not an indication of what the industry finds influential. However, that doesn't STOP a record from holding significance. If a black female artist tops two of the biggest white rock male acts by scoring more consecutive #1s, that's a big deal, whether you like it or not. If you're gonna paraphrase me, do it correctly.

Oh, and I hope you saw the links I posted of the girls citing Whitney as an influence.

Posted by AHND on Monday, 04.30.12 @ 23:43pm


"Yes it does, seeing as how you said "Mariah surpassed Whitney a myriad times over" when I claimed Whitney was more influential. When I asked you for PROOF of Mariah "surpassing" Whitney, that's when you cited Mariah's record statistics. They weren't even in the conversation at that time until YOU brought it up. And if you were hauling out meaningless statistics, why on EARTH would you cite them as PROOF for your claim that Mariah surpassed Whitney a myriad times over? That makes NO SENSE. So for you to now claim that you did it to show that MINE were meaningless when I hadn't even mentioned the records Whitney holds in our conversation, it makes you a LIAR as well as a hypocrite."

You were talking about records that were set, Whitney being first this and first that and most sold for a multi-qualifier-laden record. I was showing you through equally meaningless stats that you can make any kind of stat fit the way you want. That was my intention, and that still is the point. Admittedly, I sometimes get so caught up in my own game that I forget what my point was, but that was and is still the point. It does not make me a liar or a hypocrite. Do not make be out to be either.

"That wasn't your point at all."

Yes it was. My point was and still is that "taking the diva image to the next level" or however you phrased it, is not a valid statement about the music, which is all that is supposed to matter when it comes to Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame induction (which it turns out isn't even what you're talking about either).

"#1- What YOU think should or shouldn't matter is irrelevant. What matters to the Hall is what matters to the Hall, so your personal feelings shouldn't even be discussed because they mean nowt."

Except for my distaste about Madonna, my personal feelings are actually pretty well kept out of it (the point about diva image that is). The bit about the music being what matters is what they (the Rock Hall powers-that-be) say. The point about them not favoring soft-rock artists is an observation based on who were big in that area but haven't even gotten so much as serious consideration.

"#2- You insinuated in your comment that I was using the logic that because they did it for Madge, they should do it for Whitney, when I NEVER ever once claimed anything of the sort. Your exact words were "They did it for Madonna" is not a valid reason to do it for Whitney.""

Then I misinterpreted you, and I apologize.

"Easy Listening is NOT a genre. A genre is a category of music in which musical pieces/songs share conventions in regards to musical form (rhythm, melody, scales, instrumentation, harmony etc.). There is no musical form for "easy listening". It's a NICHE. You can have easy listening pop, easy listening jazz, easy listening rock. ALL GENRES appear on the Easy Listening Charts. So once again, you're WRONG. Songs from all genres have their own NICHES. It doesn't make niches genres themselves"

Sorry, but you are wrong here. Easy listening is indeed a genre based on primarily major tonalities, duple meter (with some inclusions of triple), the actual beat of the music is largely unaccentuated, or where it is not often through heavy percussion use. Vibraphones are generally part of the overlay of either counter-melodic or harmonic accompaniment of the melody often carried by vocals. The dymanic range is mostly on the piano side, but most examples of the genre use crescendos accompanied with slowing down of the meter to accentuate a particular phrase of the either a bridge or chorus. Tempo is generally on the side of andante, with hints of rubato, occasionally allegretto, but very seldom into allegro territory.

"Mariah's had a teen fanbase since the beginning. Her fanbase is (or was) of ALL ages, hence why she had so many #1 singles. And she's targeted a lot of her singles before Heartbreaker towards teenagers: Someday, Emotions, Dreamlover, Fantasy, Always Be My Baby, Honey."

Right, but every three or four years, the teen crowd has a tendency to shift towards another trend of sorts. Mariah continues to find ways to appeal to the teenage crowd (admittedly, a lot of that is through the visual intrigue of the music video, still though, videos aren't enough, or else J. Lo would have never disappeared from the musical spotlight).

"Uh, no. It was still a POPULAR form of music, right there in the forefront with British rock. In fact, British rock was INFLUENCED by a LOT of soul music. And you had Motown, Stax, and Atlantic with huge artists like Aretha, Ray, Sly and the Family Stone, Otis Redding, Solomon Burke, Ike and Tina, Little Richard, Fats Domino, Temptations, Four Tops, Supremes, Stevie, Gladys Knight and the Pips."

*sigh* I didn't say it wasn't popular. I said it was the never the predominant form of music. It's never really been the strongest presence in the music scene the way hip-hop emerged in the late '90s or danceable pop has become on current Top 40 radio.

"I didn't say "it's only just the masses". I said these records are a reflection of what the masses like and not an indication of what the industry finds influential. However, that doesn't STOP a record from holding significance. If a black female artist tops two of the biggest white rock male acts by scoring more consecutive #1s, that's a big deal, whether you like it or not."

It's not actually. It's not a big deal. Those other two still have more #1s total than her. All it says is that she may have been hotter in her heyday that those other two were in theirs, but even that's easily disputed by the fact that their material flooded the market with such backlogs that you couldn't push everything to #1.

And we apparently disagree about the meaning of influence. It's not enough to call someone your idol or that you like them, or even that they made you want to get into music. It's about whose music you hear undertones of in other people's music. That's the best way to determine true influence. It's hearing the Four Seasons-style in Billy Joel's "Uptown Girl", or the Four Freshmen's harmonic patterns in many Beach Boys songs. It's more telling, and more important. And I don't get Whitney from anything by Spears, P!nk, Rimes, the Band Perry, or Rihanna (except "Unfaithful" perhaps).

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 05.2.12 @ 21:55pm


"You were talking about records that were set, Whitney being first this and first that and most sold for a multi-qualifier-laden record. I was showing you through equally meaningless stats that you can make any kind of stat fit the way you want. That was my intention, and that still is the point. Admittedly, I sometimes get so caught up in my own game that I forget what my point was, but that was and is still the point. It does not make me a liar or a hypocrite. Do not make be out to be either."-

See, this is why you need to read my posts more carefully. When I first mentioned them, I WASN'T even talking to YOU. I was talking to the user "BH". So yeah, once again "They weren't even in the conversation at that time until YOU brought it up." Once again, you're lying.

"Yes it was. My point was and still is that "taking the diva image to the next level" or however you phrased it, is not a valid statement about the music, which is all that is supposed to matter when it comes to Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame induction (which it turns out isn't even what you're talking about either)."-

I said Whitney's diva image was for the modern era and many female vocalists had their image based on hers. Like it or not, image and music go hand in hand. Whether or not they should is another matter entirely. If an artist has had tremendous impact on the image of a certain group in music, whether females, rock artists, R&B artists etc., it makes them influential. Luckily for Whitney, she's influential in that area and MORE influential in others.

"Sorry, but you are wrong here. Easy listening is indeed a genre based on primarily major tonalities, duple meter (with some inclusions of triple), the actual beat of the music is largely unaccentuated, or where it is not often through heavy percussion use. Vibraphones are generally part of the overlay of either counter-melodic or harmonic accompaniment of the melody often carried by vocals. The dymanic range is mostly on the piano side, but most examples of the genre use crescendos accompanied with slowing down of the meter to accentuate a particular phrase of the either a bridge or chorus. Tempo is generally on the side of andante, with hints of rubato, occasionally allegretto, but very seldom into allegro territory."-

Yeah, no.....easy listening encompasses MANY genres. That's a fact. Duple meter can be used in any genre or style of music. Major tonality depends on the song, not the genre.
I could write a jazz song on the blues scale, with a meter of 3/4, also include backphrasing and a little bit of syncopation, the dynamics of the song might not surpass mezzo-piano, and it could be classified as easy listening. Easy listening is based on the song's FEEL, not musical form. So it's great that you've mentioned all these things, but those musical qualities depend on the musician/song, not the genre. I mean, Dionne Warwick is classified as easy listening and her songs had complex time signatures and melodies. But they had a gentle FEEL about them. It FELT easy to listen to, even if the singing wasn't easy to actually do.

"*sigh* I didn't say it wasn't popular. I said it was the never the predominant form of music. It's never really been the strongest presence in the music scene the way hip-hop emerged in the late '90s or danceable pop has become on current Top 40 radio."-

Then where's the argument? Did I not say that soul was POPULAR music at that time? Yes.

"It's not actually. It's not a big deal. Those other two still have more #1s total than her. All it says is that she may have been hotter in her heyday that those other two were in theirs, but even that's easily disputed by the fact that their material flooded the market with such backlogs that you couldn't push everything to #1. "-

The Bee Gees have 9 #1s, 2 less than Whitney. So it's only the Beatles that have surpassed her in total #1s.
Yeah, it is a big deal. A very big deal. For the reasons I've stated.

"And we apparently disagree about the meaning of influence. It's not enough to call someone your idol or that you like them, or even that they made you want to get into music. It's about whose music you hear undertones of in other people's music. That's the best way to determine true influence. It's hearing the Four Seasons-style in Billy Joel's "Uptown Girl", or the Four Freshmen's harmonic patterns in many Beach Boys songs. It's more telling, and more important. And I don't get Whitney from anything by Spears, P!nk, Rimes, the Band Perry, or Rihanna (except "Unfaithful" perhaps)."-

That's great. But seeing as YOU don't get to tell anyone who they were influenced by, it doesn't matter. You might not hear Whitney in those people, but others might. So seeing as what you "hear" is subjective, we can only go by what has been SAID and STATED. And the FACT is those singers and plenty more have STATED that Whitney is a major influence.

But if you want to get specific, Whitney Houston revitalized the way ballads were sung. Completely and utterly revised it with her unique style of singing.

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 05.3.12 @ 12:07pm


"See, this is why you need to read my posts more carefully. When I first mentioned them, I WASN'T even talking to YOU. I was talking to the user "BH". So yeah, once again "They weren't even in the conversation at that time until YOU brought it up." Once again, you're lying."

Yeah, you weren't talking to me at first, and using the word "records" was erroneous on my part. I meant that Mariah does have more Pop chart hits, Top 40 hits, Top 20 hits, Top 10 hits, #1 hits, more weeks at #1, more #1 hits out of their first ten hits (8-7), she's the number one selling artist of an entire decade, which Whitney can't claim, and is ranked higher in both pop singles and album sales according to Joel Whitburn, whose scale may not be entirely flawless, but it IS objective. My sources are a bit outdated, but she probably has passed by Whitney on the R&B scene as well. "We Belong Together" has spent as many weeks at #1 as "I Will Always Love You", but spent more weeks in the Top Ten, Top 20, Top 40 and Hot 100, pretty much making it a bigger hit on all counts with the possible exception of airplay (IWALY is a staple of AC radio and will never disappear whereas WBT hasn't been around long enough to be put in the "Gold" category yet) and absolute number of copies sold, again, having a decade headstart, and her recent death re-bolstering the sales. So Mariah hasn't broken records set by Whitney, but she has surpassed Whitney on just about every other conceivable front.

"Yeah, no.....easy listening encompasses MANY genres. That's a fact. Duple meter can be used in any genre or style of music. Major tonality depends on the song, not the genre.
I could write a jazz song on the blues scale, with a meter of 3/4, also include backphrasing and a little bit of syncopation, the dynamics of the song might not surpass mezzo-piano, and it could be classified as easy listening. Easy listening is based on the song's FEEL, not musical form. So it's great that you've mentioned all these things, but those musical qualities depend on the musician/song, not the genre. I mean, Dionne Warwick is classified as easy listening and her songs had complex time signatures and melodies. But they had a gentle FEEL about them. It FELT easy to listen to, even if the singing wasn't easy to actually do."

There's not much that's complex about Dionne's music, but what made those songs' FEEL easy listening was the dynamics and tonalities, things that help define a genre. Easy listening really existed before rock, has its roots in some jazz, really started to emerge dominantly out of the musicians' strike of the '40s. Just like blues and jazz have many forms and styles, the same could be said of easy listening.

You know what technically isn't a genre though? Pop. Pop just means whatever's popular. Technically not a genre. It gets considered its own genre because of the way rock music and R&B evolved over the years.

"Then where's the argument? Did I not say that soul was POPULAR music at that time? Yes."

My argument was that soul wasn't the PARADIGM at the time. It wasn't the FAR AND AWAY SINGLE-MOST popular musical style at any time.

"The Bee Gees have 9 #1s, 2 less than Whitney. So it's only the Beatles that have surpassed her in total #1s. Yeah, it is a big deal. A very big deal. For the reasons I've stated."

Elvis Presley has 18 #1s, the Beatles have 20, Mariah has more than that now. The Supremes have 12. Rihanna has close to a dozen now, I think. And consecutive number 1s is not a big deal because total of #1s is more important. And if you get super-technical, most music historians agree that THAT record still belongs to Elvis Presley, with ten since B-sides, EP sides, and re-issues are not counted against the streak. Technically, his streak was broken by "Wear My Ring Around Your Neck", not "I Was The One", "Blue Suede Shoes," "Money Honey," "Love Me," or any of those.

That said, I don't feel The Bodyguard should count as a Whitney album, since half the songs are hers. In which case, Carole King's "Tapestry" holds the record for biggest hit album by a female artist. Even if it did, Shania's "Double Live" album has sold more total number of copies.

But again, all these statistics are meaningless, outside of whatever value you attach to them. And I'm sorry, even if consecutive #1s was important to me, it's still not as important as total number of #1s, total number of hits, and even total weeks at #1.

"That's great. But seeing as YOU don't get to tell anyone who they were influenced by, it doesn't matter. You might not hear Whitney in those people, but others might. So seeing as what you "hear" is subjective, we can only go by what has been SAID and STATED. And the FACT is those singers and plenty more have STATED that Whitney is a major influence."

You seem to insist that I'm the only one who hears or doesn't hear these things. But what's stated is NOT as important as what's there in the music. It IS important, but not AS important. Supposedly, Paul McCartney said seeing the Crew Cuts perform first inspired him to go into music, but the Crew Cuts are not considered an influence on the Beatles or Wings, or solo McCartney. Why? Because there aren't traces of what they did encoded into the adopted styles of any of those. Have any of those artists you mentioned say specifically which songs they were trying create in a Whitney Houston-like style? Then you would have something. Also, as one friend of mine who works as a producer of compilations, some artists wear their influences on their sleeves, claiming any artist they ever liked as a "major influence". Some artists exaggerate an "influence's" importance. Plus, with Whitney having recently passed away, you've got people coming out of the woodwork to claim her influence, possibly to get face time, or just as way to give their own little eulogy. We'll probably see the same thing if Mariah dies young, or Lady Gaga, or whoever. Also, the word "influence" is so malleable, that on another page, someone tried claiming that "Wipe Out"'s drum solo being one of the rites of passage for a drummer means the Surfaris' influence is off the scale. Not even close.

Again, I'm not saying citing someone as an influence (especially as an "idol") isn't important in determining how influential an artist is. It is important, but it's nowhere near as telling as how many artists cover their songs, try to imitate their singing, or emulate their general style in a current artist's new songs. That is infinitely more telling.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 05.5.12 @ 14:16pm


"Yeah, you weren't talking to me at first, and using the word "records" was erroneous on my part. I meant that Mariah does have more Pop chart hits, Top 40 hits, Top 20 hits, Top 10 hits, #1 hits, more weeks at #1, more #1 hits out of their first ten hits (8-7), she's the number one selling artist of an entire decade, which Whitney can't claim, and is ranked higher in both pop singles and album sales according to Joel Whitburn, whose scale may not be entirely flawless, but it IS objective. My sources are a bit outdated, but she probably has passed by Whitney on the R&B scene as well. "We Belong Together" has spent as many weeks at #1 as "I Will Always Love You", but spent more weeks in the Top Ten, Top 20, Top 40 and Hot 100, pretty much making it a bigger hit on all counts with the possible exception of airplay (IWALY is a staple of AC radio and will never disappear whereas WBT hasn't been around long enough to be put in the "Gold" category yet) and absolute number of copies sold, again, having a decade headstart, and her recent death re-bolstering the sales. So Mariah hasn't broken records set by Whitney, but she has surpassed Whitney on just about every other conceivable front."

LMFAO! The way you've now suddenly REVISED your original statement is hilarious, yet predictable. You lied about why you made such a statement in the first place and called the records "unimportant". Now this revision of yours allows you to keep the "importance" of Mariah's achievements, while allowing you to discredit and diminish the importance of Whitney's. LMFAO as I said, predictable. You do know that at the time of We Belong Together and IWALY, there were different CHART rules regarding airplay, a song's eligibility on where it can chart etc. Plus, all the stuff you mentioned, with the exception of total #1 hits, no one gives a damn about. No one cares about whether one artist scored more #1s out of their first 10 hits than another artist. That's about the most anal and ridiculous "accomplishment" I've ever seen anyone list. I could easily say something so simple and stupid like "Whitney scored the most #1s out of their first 8 singles". See? But who cares? Certainly not the R&R HOF. And Mariah released more than 2X the number of albums that Whitney did in the 90s, so WHY would Whitney sell more than her in that decade? Sorry. And once again, Mariah has released FAR more singles than Whitney has, so it's not really a huge credit to her. In fact, you've helped strengthen the fact that Whitney accomplished so much doing FAR less than her peers. Thanks.
What's funny is that you claimed that these accomplishments prove or support that Mariah is more influential, when in fact, you haven't provided ONE shred of evidence to support such a claim.

"There's not much that's complex about Dionne's music, but what made those songs' FEEL easy listening was the dynamics and tonalities, things that help define a genre. Easy listening really existed before rock, has its roots in some jazz, really started to emerge dominantly out of the musicians' strike of the '40s. Just like blues and jazz have many forms and styles, the same could be said of easy listening."-

Are you serious? Bacharach and David composed songs of complex time signatures and melodies. Jazz and blues have SUBGENRES, easy listening encompasses MANY GENRES. Two different things.

"My argument was that soul wasn't the PARADIGM at the time. It wasn't the FAR AND AWAY SINGLE-MOST popular musical style at any time."- It doesn't matter. It was STILL a popular music.

"Elvis Presley has 18 #1s, the Beatles have 20, Mariah has more than that now. The Supremes have 12. Rihanna has close to a dozen now, I think. And consecutive number 1s is not a big deal because total of #1s is more important. And if you get super-technical, most music historians agree that THAT record still belongs to Elvis Presley, with ten since B-sides, EP sides, and re-issues are not counted against the streak. Technically, his streak was broken by "Wear My Ring Around Your Neck", not "I Was The One", "Blue Suede Shoes," "Money Honey," "Love Me," or any of those."-

Mariah has 18 #1s, not more than the Beatles, so you're wrong AGAIN.
You don't think consecutive #1s is important, yet you think that "most #1s out of the first 10 hit singles" is? LMFAO wow. Way to prioritize things of importance. And there has NEVER been an argument over who truly has the most consecutive #1s because B-sides are not counted as separate singles, as it doesn't make sense for TWO songs to occupy the #1 spot at the same time. And EPs are not counted as singles either. Sorry, there's no argument.

"That said, I don't feel The Bodyguard should count as a Whitney album, since half the songs are hers. In which case, Carole King's "Tapestry" holds the record for biggest hit album by a female artist. Even if it did, Shania's "Double Live" album has sold more total number of copies."-

Once again, no one cares how YOU FEEL. The fact is The Bodyguard IS counted as a Whitney album, like it or not. It's in HER name, not under "various artists". SHE won the awards for it (HER ALONE, no one else). SHE sang 50% of the album AND was executive producer. It's her album. Get over it.
Oh, and Whitney's debut album SURPASSED Tapestry LONG ago, so you're wrong...again.
And Shania Twain doesn't even HAVE an album by the name of "Double Live" lol. She was featured on the 1998 DIVAS LIVE album, which went gold. She has a DOUBLE ALBUM titled UP, which is certified 11x platinum (meaning its actual sales are 5.5 million, as double albums over 100 minutes are counted TWICE) and her best-selling album is Come On Over, which outsold The Bodyguard in the US, but not worldwide, so once again, you're wrong.
Where the heck do you get your info from?

"But again, all these statistics are meaningless, outside of whatever value you attach to them. And I'm sorry, even if consecutive #1s was important to me, it's still not as important as total number of #1s, total number of hits, and even total weeks at #1."-

Uh huh...those statistics are meaningless except the ones that apply to Mariah. I can't at your blatant, unsupported biased viewpoint, not based on anything concrete, but on what YOU feel.

Albums are JUST as important as singles, if not MORE important, and holding the biggest-selling female album is FAR more important that holding the most weeks at #1 on the singles chart. Sorry.

And you're STILL wrong lol. What's important are CLASSICS, not the AMOUNT of HITS. So even in THAT area, Mariah would lose to Whitney. No one gives a damn if you score 100 Top 20 hits. If they're forgotten, not discussed or regarded as unimportant in the music history conversation, they don't mean a damn thing.

"You seem to insist that I'm the only one who hears or doesn't hear these things. But what's stated is NOT as important as what's there in the music. It IS important, but not AS important. Supposedly, Paul McCartney said seeing the Crew Cuts perform first inspired him to go into music, but the Crew Cuts are not considered an influence on the Beatles or Wings, or solo McCartney. Why? Because there aren't traces of what they did encoded into the adopted styles of any of those. Have any of those artists you mentioned say specifically which songs they were trying create in a Whitney Houston-like style? Then you would have something. Also, as one friend of mine who works as a producer of compilations, some artists wear their influences on their sleeves, claiming any artist they ever liked as a "major influence". Some artists exaggerate an "influence's" importance. Plus, with Whitney having recently passed away, you've got people coming out of the woodwork to claim her influence, possibly to get face time, or just as way to give their own little eulogy. We'll probably see the same thing if Mariah dies young, or Lady Gaga, or whoever. Also, the word "influence" is so malleable, that on another page, someone tried claiming that "Wipe Out"'s drum solo being one of the rites of passage for a drummer means the Surfaris' influence is off the scale. Not even close."-

You're about the ONLY one who's claimed such a thing. Inspiring someone to sing is JUST as important as influencing a singer's specific sound. The Beatles aren't just influential because they had an impact on what kind of music artists were making, they're influential because they inspired singers of ALL sounds and styles. There are R&B singers even influenced by The Beatles. They sing completely different music w/ a completely different vocal style, but if a singer or band is powerful enough to influence artists of COMPLETELY different genres, THAT'S RIGHT up there in importance. And THAT's what the most influential artists do. Bob Marley, Aretha, Elvis, Mahalia, Judy, Beatles, MJ, Whitney, Madonna...they've ALL influenced artists of different generations and sounds, something WELL noted by music historians, critics and musicians. So for you to "poo poo" on such a thing says more about YOU than it does anything else. Stop equating what YOU feel as important with what the music industry does.
Some artists exaggerate an "influence's importance"? Maybe, but seeing as you have NO way to PROVE that, it means nowt. Plus, most of the people I mentioned in my list cited Whitney as an influence PRIOR to her death. Not to mention the fact that people have been talking about Whitney's huge influence and impact for DECADES now. It didn't just get twisted or made up after she died. The TALK ABOUT her influence INCREASED, but the SUBSTANCE of it didn't change. The way they talked about her influence after her death was the same way they spoke about it before her death, just they started talking MORE about it after she passed.
And yes, Katy Perry, Jessie J, Gaga, they've ALL mentioned how they've based their own music on Whitney's. I could go on, but I won't.

Posted by AHND on Saturday, 05.5.12 @ 19:45pm


Oh my what a heated topic lol
I would have agree some what with AHND..on influence.. She inspired many .... As I had also mentioned the Crew Cuts had!! He mentioned other acts that seem odd also in regards to influence......
I like. what Philip said about somethings , he seems very knowledgeable . I sense he misses the boat on Influences he isn't even close to the water! lol
That saying I like Whitney so I am bias lol

Posted by Happy on Saturday, 05.5.12 @ 20:20pm


The only thing I'm revising is the bit about records, because I admit I used the word erroneously. But you know what? No one gives a damn about most consecutive #1s either. No one but you, apparently. And as you're so fond of saying, no one cares what YOU think either.

You said Whitney had 11 #1s, which only the Beatles had topped. Not true.

The fact that Mariah has put out more singles is actually a strength for her and not Whitney. It speaks to a more prodigious output. Also, Mariah's chart average is about a #16 or #17, I believe. Whitney's is about #22. So if you wanna see how it averages out, there you go.

Bachrach and David are schlock. I don't even waste my time analyzing their stuff.

And sorry, you haven't explained why easy listening isn't a genre. You threw the qualifications my way, I answered them. Jazz and blues have subgenres, and they also merge with other styles. Easy listening does the same thing.

Okay, I had the Shania title wrong. My info is from Joel Whitburn's record research book, which draws from Billboard. It's a bit Americentric, but until now, your arguments have also all been Americentric. Unfortunately, without an internet connection at home, my books and a working internet connection are seldom in the same place at the same time.

FWIW, I prefer Whitney to Mariah. But you talk like Whitney's a unique, untouchable, untoppable cultural phenom. Unique maybe, but not in every way that you mention. I'm just saying that whatever stats you bring up, most of it's pretty much either refutable with other stats or altogether unimportant or both. I'm not trying to lie, be a hypocrite or anything. Just that even though I prefer Whitney, I'm not going to ignore that Mariah (and Madonna unfortunately) have accomplished more.

I still say Mariah's more influential because more artists try to sound like her. Rhythmic diva singing is more of a Mariah thing, and that's what more pop stars are doing rather than mainly straight-laced balladry, what most of Whitney's best-known songs were. That's where I get that from.

I agree, classics matter more than hits. That's why I say that the non-#1 stuff is almost more important. So many beloved songs didn't hit #1, while many #1 hits have been lost in the shuffle, and only remembered as products of their time.

"Albums are JUST as important as singles, if not MORE important, and holding the biggest-selling female album is FAR more important that holding the most weeks at #1 on the singles chart. Sorry."

That's just what YOU think, and nobody cares what YOU think. See what I did there? Albums are not more important because albums are made up of songs (or singles). Unless you can name the vast majority of the songs from an album, you have no business hailing an album as a masterpiece. What makes the album great are the songs. And no, having the biggest selling female album isn't important because a) gender isn't as important, good music is good music whatever the gender and b) because it's ONE album. If it was a one-album wonder, you wouldn't care about who they are. They'd be a flash-in-the-pan that had one monster album and disappeared. The fact that it wasn't from a one-and-done artist is why you care. The best-selling album by a female artist is a PEAK, it's not the whole mountain range. The Himalayas are more than just Everest. That's why I find that irrelevant.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 05.5.12 @ 21:24pm


Wow.hard to say who is more of an influence.
I guess that would be a pie in the sky... I agree a classis has a bigger chance in the long run..Reason being , if you don't hear it can't influence you lol,,,Also the good stuff sticks ,,,, Just think of those 1 hit wonders that keep on playing!Many of those old-timers did more with on hit then some did with 20!
Many of them can be a life changing event for years an years to come !
I see no reason for people to get upset over this,I am here to learn a share ,,,, I hope all of you are also!


Posted by Happy on Saturday, 05.5.12 @ 21:55pm


"The only thing I'm revising is the bit about records, because I admit I used the word erroneously. But you know what? No one gives a damn about most consecutive #1s either. No one but you, apparently. And as you're so fond of saying, no one cares what YOU think either."-

Now that's funny. Your USE of the word may have been "erroneous", but the context of what you were talking about (chart accomplishments) wasn't used erroneously. So it doesn't matter as you STILL claimed that chart accomplishments meant nothing. So next time, try and be more "thorough" in your revising.

What's funnier is how I haven't been touting about what I think, but have backed up what I've said with FACTS, not my own personal feelings. So your argument there=0.

"You said Whitney had 11 #1s, which only the Beatles had topped. Not true."-

I was responding to your claim that the Beatles AND The Bee Gees both scored more #1s. I was discussing how Whitney broke the record of two of the biggest white male rock bands for most consecutive #1 singles, and you responded with ""It's not actually. It's not a big deal. Those other two still have more #1s total than her." Thus, I responded with "The Bee Gees have 9 #1s, 2 less than Whitney. So it's only the Beatles that have surpassed her in total #1s." Reading is fundamental.

"The fact that Mariah has put out more singles is actually a strength for her and not Whitney. It speaks to a more prodigious output."-

A more prodigious output would insinuate that Mariah has gotten more critical acclaim for her singles AND has more classics in them than Whitney does, both of which are not true. All it speaks to is that she has more quantity. Quantity=quality. Try again.

"Also, Mariah's chart average is about a #16 or #17, I believe. Whitney's is about #22. So if you wanna see how it averages out, there you go."-

Great. But once again, Mariah released more SINGLES. And the HOF don't look at "chart averages", so what are you trying to prove again?

"Bachrach and David are schlock. I don't even waste my time analyzing their stuff."-

Again, great. Still doesn't change the fact that their songs had difficult time signatures and melodies.

"FWIW, I prefer Whitney to Mariah. But you talk like Whitney's a unique, untouchable, untoppable cultural phenom. Unique maybe, but not in every way that you mention. I'm just saying that whatever stats you bring up, most of it's pretty much either refutable with other stats or altogether unimportant or both. I'm not trying to lie, be a hypocrite or anything. Just that even though I prefer Whitney, I'm not going to ignore that Mariah (and Madonna unfortunately) have accomplished more."-

This was never about who you "prefer". No one cares about that *sigh*
And sorry, splitting up accomplishments into the most tiny chunks you can doesn't make an artist more accomplished than another. Having 8 #1s out of 10 singles doesn't make someone more accomplished than another who had 7 #1s out of 10 singles. Nor does having a "chart average" of #16 make one more accomplished than having a chart average of #22. Who looks at accomplishments in such an anal, ridiculous way? No one. Certainly not the HOF.
And you've been lying and being a hypocrite this whole time by saying whatever you can to discredit Whitney's accomplishments, yet boost up Mariah's. To you, scoring 8 #1 singles out of 10 singles is more important than 7 consecutive #1s. To you, Mariah's records are important, yet Whitney's aren't. Ooops..."record" was the wrong word. But once again, the context and intent weren't. So, yeah, you are a big hypocrite. You can barely keep track of what you say, let alone what I say.

"I still say Mariah's more influential because more artists try to sound like her. Rhythmic diva singing is more of a Mariah thing, and that's what more pop stars are doing rather than mainly straight-laced balladry, what most of Whitney's best-known songs were. That's where I get that from."-

And again, you'd be wrong. Rhythmic "diva" singing did not start with Mariah, nor was it popularized by her. I mean, ever since Whitney came out, she's been noted AND has shown that she has the gospel rhythmic sense that came from Aretha. So out of anyone, Aretha has the strongest claim to that. And we can go back and make a claim for all the divas before, like Billie, Ella, Bessie etc.

"I agree, classics matter more than hits. That's why I say that the non-#1 stuff is almost more important. So many beloved songs didn't hit #1, while many #1 hits have been lost in the shuffle, and only remembered as products of their time."-

You said that non-#1 stuff is almost more important, yet you keep on mentioning things that no one even thinks of like "most #1s out of 10 singles" and classing them as ACCOMPLISHMENTS. What's next? The most #1s over a 3 month-period? Or how about the most #1s scored between the least number of albums? Maybe "the most #1s while earning the least amount of money" I'm sure they're more important to you than concrete, FREQUENTLY-DISCUSSED, AWARDED accomplishments like seven consecutive #1 singles.
But I'm glad you agree. Because Whitney has more classics than Mariah does. So what was your point again?

"That's just what YOU think, and nobody cares what YOU think. See what I did there?"-

I saw what you did there. It just didn't work. Sorry. Albums are far more noted for starting movements or having notable impact in music than singles are. Aretha's Never Loved a Man and Lady Soul ALBUMS are noted for setting a standard in soul music vocals and for continuing the progression of gospel-inflected secular music. Carole King's Tapestry for its influence in songwriting in music, MJ's Thriller for its influence on black music appeal, marketing, Whitney's debut for being the blueprint for diva albums of the modern era.
Separate songs come together and make a WHOLE WORK. Haven't you been touting all this time how it's about the "whole work?"
That's why you're more likely to get inducted into the Hall based off one influential album/a few well-received (but not mega) albums than you are based off being a one-hit wonder (or even a few-hits wonder).

"Albums are not more important because albums are made up of songs (or singles). Unless you can name the vast majority of the songs from an album, you have no business hailing an album as a masterpiece."-

Who said anything about a masterpiece?

"What makes the album great are the songs."-

But not all the songs are released. See? And singles are RELEASED songs.

"And no, having the biggest selling female album isn't important because a) gender isn't as important, good music is good music whatever the gender and b) because it's ONE album."-

You tell that to music historians, critics, musicians and to the Hall that gender isn't important. That's why there are a handful of female singers who are duly noted and praised. Why? For what they did for female artists in music through their work and accomplishments. That's why so many are KNOWN for it, TALKED about for it, WRITTEN about for it and HONORED for it. If it wasn't important, the world wouldn't care, but the world DOES. The R&R Hall of Fame CERTAINLY does. Go and read the biographies of Bonnie Raitt, Aretha Franklin, Mahalia Jackson, Madonna on the official R&R Hall of Fame website, then tell me it isn't important.

And as I said, a one-album wonder is more likely to get into the Hall than a one-hit wonder.

"If it was a one-album wonder, you wouldn't care about who they are. They'd be a flash-in-the-pan that had one monster album and disappeared."-

The Sex Pistols, Jeff Buckley, Blind Faith, Jane's Addiction, 4 Non Blondes beg to differ.

"The fact that it wasn't from a one-and-done artist is why you care. The best-selling album by a female artist is a PEAK, it's not the whole mountain range. The Himalayas are more than just Everest. That's why I find that irrelevant."-

"A peak" in the progression of females in MUSIC, HENCE why it is important. Sorry that YOU find it irrelevant. The industry itself does not. The industry> you. Simple.

Posted by AHND on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 00:19am


P.S. (didn't want to make my post too long, so split it)

"And sorry, you haven't explained why easy listening isn't a genre. You threw the qualifications my way, I answered them. Jazz and blues have subgenres, and they also merge with other styles. Easy listening does the same thing."-

You do know that Easy Listening used to be/is another name for AC, something which you AGREED wasn't a genre. You can't have it both ways. Your own words: "AC isn't a genre, but Easy Listening is".

BTW, it's funny how you talked about me splitting hairs when I said AC was a niche and not a genre, yet got so over-pedantic and started posting about how Mariah scored more #1s than Whitney out of their first 10 singles (8 vs. 7). And to top it off, you find THAT of importance, yet dismiss something like the progression and state of women in music. HILARITY.

You claim that Mariah is more accomplished than Whitney because she has more Pop chart hits, Top 40 hits, Top 20 hits, Top 10 hits, #1 hits, more weeks at #1, more #1 hits out of their first ten hits (8-7), and she's the number one selling artist of an entire decade. Good. Going that by that logic, Mariah is also more accomplished than Aretha Franklin. Mariah has more #1s than Aretha does Top 10 Hits.
But as you've been saying, these statistics mean nothing. So I fail to understand why you brought them up. It wasn't because I brought them out first (as we already established). It was because you claimed Mariah was more influential than Whitney and had surpassed her, and used these to prove it. So if we go by this, Aretha is surpassed by many females in accomplishments...but we know that's not true.

And if I wanted to get really over-pedantic about accomplishments, I could easily point out that Whitney has sold more albums than Mariah by ratio, has scored more hits "by ratio", scored more #1s out of her first 8 singles than Mariah did, or how she's sold the most physical singles out of any other female artist.
Oh, BTW, regarding R&B, on Billboard's Top 50 R&B Artists, Mariah was #4, Whitney was #3. So.....

Posted by AHND on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 00:56am


Dangit, I had a huge reply typed up and I lost it. Lemme see if I can hit it with bullet points.

-The context and intent was to show that those sales and stats mean relatively nothing when it comes to the Hall Of Fame. At that time, I thought you were actually still discussing whether or not Whitney will get in, which you weren't.

-Your argument seemed to be that Whitney is the cut-and-dry, end-all-be-all, far-and-away queen of pop music in the past 30 years. The stats simply show that a) that there's room for debate, and b) if you look hard enough you can find a stat to say anything you want, and that's one reason why it's pretty much meaningless. Mariah has surpassed Whitney in many ways, statistically speaking, and I was showing how you can pick stats to prove your point. Why you can't see that is beyond me. That's not hypocritical. I'm not trying to do the things you're accusing me of, at least not for the reasons you ascribe to me.

-Even if stats were important, I'd say most #1 hits was more important than most consecutive #1 hits. The 8/10 thing was to call myopia on that consecutive #1 string. If you zoom out just a tad, it creates a different perspective.

-Scrolling back, I don't see where I mentioned the BeeGees. You said two white male rock acts... I thought you were referring to the Beatles and Elvis.

-I didn't say Mariah had a better track record of critical acclaim. I was speaking to her work ethic, and that she still manages to maintain a run of commercial success.

-And just what songs are all classics by Whitney? You claim she has more. And classics as determined by whom?

-Rhythmic "diva"... okay, modern rhythmic diva singing. Whitney's legacy = torch ballads. Mariah's legacy = songs that make you move your feet. Not to say one didn't do the other. Whitney had "How Will I Know" and Mariah had "Hero," but generally speaking, Whitney's influence is more present in "Hurt" and "Unfaithful" whereas Mariah's influence is more present in "Come On Over" and "S.O.S." (not a great example from Rihanna, but it makes the point).

-Albums... I've told this story before and maybe you've read it. Working one night, I had Sgt. Pepper's playing, and one of my friends flipped out when the reprise played to lead into A Day In The Life. He had absolutely no idea that that reprise track existed. He had been telling me how much he loved the album and such, but had no idea that this track existed. That's very telling to me. What starts movements and does other things is not the album itself, but the songs on the album. The songs actually reach out and touch others, not the album's concept itself, usually. You can have songs without albums, but if you're a musician, you can't have albums without songs (few exceptions noted). An album cannot exist without the songs. The album can never be greater than the songs that comprise it.

-"And as I said, a one-album wonder is more likely to get into the Hall than a one-hit wonder.

The Sex Pistols, Jeff Buckley, Blind Faith, Jane's Addiction, 4 Non Blondes beg to differ."

General rule, not hard and fast scientific law. If it had been Los Del Rio, or Milli Vanilli with that record, you'd have reverted back to your "it's just the masses" comment. But it's not, and because it's not, it means oceans to you.

-No, AC isn't just another term for Easy Listening. I used to work for an AC station, and they played "Edge Of Glory", "Forget You", and "California Gurls" among others, which are NOT Easy Listening. I said AC evolved from the easy listening genre, because it did. As the listening audience's aged, the music scene evolved, but by and large, the enthusiasm for new styles among those people who'd aged didn't. And as former teens kept aging, it piled up so that songs that would have been unthinkable to play on an MOR station back in the day is now in rotation on Adult Contemporary radio.

-Again, I don't think the 8-7 thing is really important. I was pointing out how you can make stats say whatever you want it to say.

-And no, I'm not dismissing the progression of women in the music industry. I do think the playing field was greatly evened (albeit not 100%) by the time Whitney came along, and that probably has more to do with why I don't find it impressive, and why I would if say, Lesley Gore had done it back in the '60s.

-Again, I brought up stats because you seemed so certain that Whitney was the apex of female achievement in the music industry, and I was showing that there's room for argument.

-"And if I wanted to get really over-pedantic about accomplishments, I could easily point out that Whitney has sold more albums than Mariah by ratio, has scored more hits "by ratio", scored more #1s out of her first 8 singles than Mariah did, or how she's sold the most physical singles out of any other female artist."

Yep, and I would say that those would be interesting arguments if those stats mattered. Actually, the physical singles one is pretty important, I'd be interested to know where you got that info, though I'd probably also dismiss it by saying that singles are easier to come by than they were in the '60s, that Whitney's death has sparked an influx in sales of her songs, etc. etc. Because that's the kind of devil's advocate debater I generally am.

-I find Record Research Inc.'s perspective and rankings more objective than Billboard's, but that's a good update. Thanks for the info.

Posted by Philip on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 03:06am


"The context and intent was to show that those sales and stats mean relatively nothing when it comes to the Hall Of Fame. At that time, I thought you were actually still discussing whether or not Whitney will get in, which you weren't."-

Which is why you've continued to talk about those same sales and stats, even when I made it clear that my focus of conversation wasn't on induction when I first started posting. So that's not a good excuse at all.

"Your argument seemed to be that Whitney is the cut-and-dry, end-all-be-all, far-and-away queen of pop music in the past 30 years. The stats simply show that a) that there's room for debate, and b) if you look hard enough you can find a stat to say anything you want, and that's one reason why it's pretty much meaningless. Mariah has surpassed Whitney in many ways, statistically speaking, and I was showing how you can pick stats to prove your point. Why you can't see that is beyond me. That's not hypocritical. I'm not trying to do the things you're accusing me of, at least not for the reasons you ascribe to me."-

That's not my argument, so don't put words in my mouth. I said she was the most influential female singer of the past three decades and I backed it UP, whereas you tried to refute it with silly statements like "Whitney has influenced thousands, Mariah tens of thousands".

LOL when you first posted those "meaningless" stats (your words), you said you posted them to refute the stats that I posted. But as we established, during our convo, YOU brought up stats first. NOW you're saying you posted them to show how you can pick stats to prove your point. Make up your mind. It's either one or the other, and if it was both, you would have stated so the first time. So you may not be TRYING to be a liar, but that's what you're coming across as. And there's a difference between picking stats and picking AT stats. You did FAR more of the latter, not the former (ex. most #1s out of 10 singles... who THINK likes that?)

"Even if stats were important, I'd say most #1 hits was more important than most consecutive #1 hits. The 8/10 thing was to call myopia on that consecutive #1 string. If you zoom out just a tad, it creates a different perspective."-

Nah, the 8/10 thing was being over-pedantic. No one thinks like that when looking at accomplishments. And again, there are FAR more stats from Whitney that I could mention, so for you to claim Mariah has surpassed Whitney statistically speaking is FALSE.

"Scrolling back, I don't see where I mentioned the BeeGees. You said two white male rock acts... I thought you were referring to the Beatles and Elvis."-

Well, that's on you, not me. I said Whitney topped " two of the biggest white rock male acts by scoring more consecutive #1s". It's a well-known fact that she broke both the Bee Gees and The Beatles tied record of 6 consecutive #1s when she scored her 7th. If you didn't know who I was referring to, that's not my problem.

"I didn't say Mariah had a better track record of critical acclaim. I was speaking to her work ethic, and that she still manages to maintain a run of commercial success."-

You said Mariah had a more prodigious output, which insinuates something BEYOND commerciality.

"And just what songs are all classics by Whitney? You claim she has more. And classics as determined by whom?"-

Songs still discussed in the musical conversation. Songs frequently covered or still played on radio. Songs the casual fan knows well and enjoys. Songs held to critical acclaim and/or are still well-remembered in the public and industry eyes.

"Rhythmic "diva"... okay, modern rhythmic diva singing. Whitney's legacy = torch ballads. Mariah's legacy = songs that make you move your feet."

Which is why Mariah is primarily known for being a balladeer, right?

"Not to say one didn't do the other. Whitney had "How Will I Know" and Mariah had "Hero," but generally speaking, Whitney's influence is more present in "Hurt" and "Unfaithful" whereas Mariah's influence is more present in "Come On Over" and "S.O.S." (not a great example from Rihanna, but it makes the point)."-

Whitney also has I Wanna Dance with Somebody, So Emotional, I'm Your Baby Tonight, I'm Every Woman, Queen of the Night, and It's Not Right but It's OK.

You really didn't make any point. You claimed Mariah's legacy is in her danceable numbers, when in fact, she's more revered for her ballads, and cited probably the first Rihanna song that popped into your head.

"Albums... I've told this story before and maybe you've read it. Working one night, I had Sgt. Pepper's playing, and one of my friends flipped out when the reprise played to lead into A Day In The Life. He had absolutely no idea that that reprise track existed. He had been telling me how much he loved the album and such, but had no idea that this track existed. That's very telling to me. What starts movements and does other things is not the album itself, but the songs on the album. The songs actually reach out and touch others, not the album's concept itself, usually. You can have songs without albums, but if you're a musician, you can't have albums without songs (few exceptions noted). An album cannot exist without the songs. The album can never be greater than the songs that comprise it."-

Great. Nice, but as I said, NOT ALL SONGS from albums ARE RELEASED. A SINGLE is a RELEASED song. It is NOT an unreleased album track. So what's your point again?

"General rule, not hard and fast scientific law. If it had been Los Del Rio, or Milli Vanilli with that record, you'd have reverted back to your "it's just the masses" comment. But it's not, and because it's not, it means oceans to you."-

Please tell me what musical impact Milli Vanilli had on music apart from their lipsynching scandal. And Los Del Rio were a ONE-HIT WONDER, HENCE why I said "And as I said, a one-album wonder is more likely to get into the Hall than a one-hit wonder."
Thanks for proving MY point.

"No, AC isn't just another term for Easy Listening. I used to work for an AC station, and they played "Edge Of Glory", "Forget You", and "California Gurls" among others, which are NOT Easy Listening. I said AC evolved from the easy listening genre, because it did."-

You agreed that AC wasn't a genre, yet it evolved from a genre? LOL that makes no sense. Make your mind up. And YES, easy listening IS another name for AC. That's why the Adult Contemporary chart used to go by the name of the Easy Listening Chart. That's a FACT.

"And no, I'm not dismissing the progression of women in the music industry. I do think the playing field was greatly evened (albeit not 100%) by the time Whitney came along, and that probably has more to do with why I don't find it impressive, and why I would if say, Lesley Gore had done it back in the '60s."-

Again, no one cares about what YOU find impressive. The FACT is the industry finds it impressive and NOTEWORTHY, which is why Whitney has been praised and noted FOR what she did for women in music, esp. black women.

"Again, I brought up stats because you seemed so certain that Whitney was the apex of female achievement in the music industry, and I was showing that there's room for argument."-

No. MY point was that she influenced entire generations through her singing, nothing of which was ever heard before her. I also said that through her influence, she garnered great commercial success that opened up black artists, female artists, and R&B artists to a bigger field, and that many female artists have been based on her image and style of music. I never said she was the most accomplished. That goes to Aretha Franklin.

"Yep, and I would say that those would be interesting arguments if those stats mattered. Actually, the physical singles one is pretty important, I'd be interested to know where you got that info, though I'd probably also dismiss it by saying that singles are easier to come by than they were in the '60s, that Whitney's death has sparked an influx in sales of her songs, etc. etc. Because that's the kind of devil's advocate debater I generally am"-

Exactly. Whitney scoring more #1s than Mariah out of their first 8 singles isn't important, so why would you think that Mariah scoring more #1s out of their first 10 is? Why would you also think that Mariah is more accomplished for having more #1s and Top 10 Hits, when FAR more accomplished females in music like Aretha don't have anywhere NEAR the number of hits?

You really need to pay attention and get up to date with music history and understanding of today's industry. Whitney Houston sold 16.5 million PHYSICAL singles in the US, according to the RIAA, more than any other female artist. You'd be incorrect (no surprise there) to assume that it's because of her death, seeing as how singles are now DIGITAL singles these days instead of physical and seeing as how Whitney's numbers are PRE-2004, eight years before her death. Don't assume or dismiss until you know all the facts and understand what they mean.

Posted by AHND on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 11:34am


As a person just reading this stuff I would say both of you have good points It also seems you agree Whitey gave a lot to the music world.It also appears that you agree a few songs or even 1 song fron an artist can make a big impac on the music world, Be it the artist or song the question is how much?
I say both of you are spliting hairs ! If the artist/song/songs...
made a contribution then it has done more than most..
That can be hard to define each song can be special in its own way..
Try to keep an open mind As you know sometimes less is more..It all started with a Atom....lol

Posted by Happy on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 11:55am


Phew, just as an observer, this debate really isn't going anywhere anymore. AHND, is it possible for you to discuss anybody OTHER than Whitney Houston? You remind a bit of someone by the name of S L Ballard on the Steve Perry page. S L Ballard would ONLY discuss Steve Perry and nobody else, are you perhaps related?

"You really need to pay attention and get up to date with music history and understanding of today's industry."

Ugh, I hate it when people act condescending! Especially to someone like Philip, if anybody on here is knowledgeable about the music industry, it's Philip!

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 12:14pm


tl:dr

Posted by GFW on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 14:06pm


Tahvo, is it any of your business who I discuss? No, so please, don't mind what I'm doing. Mind what you're doing.

"Ugh, I hate it when people act condescending! Especially to someone like Philip, if anybody on here is knowledgeable about the music industry, it's Philip!"-

I'm only going by what he's said in his comments, which so far have been wrong about what the industry cares about and what is going in today in terms of the charts.

Posted by AHND on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 17:15pm


"Is it any of your business who I discuss?" Of course it's my business! Didn't you know everything that happens on here is my business! (Just kidding).

I don't mean to butt into your conversation with Philip, AHND. It just really seems that by this point, the argument here has become a case of agreeing to disagreeing, of course you probably won't agree to that :)

Posted by Tahvo Parvianen on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 17:34pm


Well let us get on with our conversation. It will end when it ends.

Posted by AHND on Sunday, 05.6.12 @ 20:40pm


Thanks Tahvo, I appreciate the support. AHND, I'll try to back to you tomorrow. Unfortunately, bill-paying took up a lot of my allotted time for today for public interent use. I'll try to address your points or lack of same tomorrow.

Posted by Philip on Monday, 05.7.12 @ 20:19pm


Ok, sorry about the delay.

"Which is why you've continued to talk about those same sales and stats, even when I made it clear that my focus of conversation wasn't on induction when I first started posting. So that's not a good excuse at all."

You've been harping on about the stats just as much as I have, so you've really got no excuse either.

"That's not my argument, so don't put words in my mouth. I said she was the most influential female singer of the past three decades and I backed it UP, whereas you tried to refute it with silly statements like "Whitney has influenced thousands, Mariah tens of thousands"."

It's really not all that silly. Mariah has been incredibly influential as well, including these artists:
Mariah Carey Has Influenced:

•Fergie
•Kelly Clarkson
•Christina Aguilera
•Nelly Furtado
•Britney Spears
•Beyonce Knowles
•Ciara
•Leona Lewis
•Jennifer Lopez
•Destiny's Child
•Keyshia Cole
•Carrie Underwood
•Mandy Moore
•Cassie
•Aaliyah
•Ashanti
•Cheetah Girls
•Jessica Simpson
•Kelly Rowland
•Monica
•Brandy
•Missy Elliott
•Kat Deluna
•Keri Hilson

I don't hear Mariah in all of them, either, but if saying they were influential is important to you, then there you go.

"LOL when you first posted those "meaningless" stats (your words), you said you posted them to refute the stats that I posted. But as we established, during our convo, YOU brought up stats first. NOW you're saying you posted them to show how you can pick stats to prove your point. Make up your mind. It's either one or the other, and if it was both, you would have stated so the first time."

No it's not, and no I don't have to and wouldn't have.

"So you may not be TRYING to be a liar, but that's what you're coming across as. And there's a difference between picking stats and picking AT stats. You did FAR more of the latter, not the former (ex. most #1s out of 10 singles... who THINK likes that?)"

If you can focus on a ten-year segment, of an artist's career, you can focus on a ten-hit singles segment too. But also, who thinks like "most consecutive #1 singles for a solo, black, female performer" either? The more qualifiers you predicate a record upon the more worthless the stat becomes. You may as well be asking "What's the all-time best-selling album by a band consisting of three Italian-Americans and one Dutch-American, that formed while they were in college but didn't break out successfully until three years later?"

"Nah, the 8/10 thing was being over-pedantic. No one thinks like that when looking at accomplishments. And again, there are FAR more stats from Whitney that I could mention, so for you to claim Mariah has surpassed Whitney statistically speaking is FALSE."

Whitney doesn't have more pop hits, top 40, top 20, top 10, #1 or weeks at #1 than Mariah. So yes, speaking from those statistics, yes, Mariah has passed Whitney. Whitney has sold more absolute copies, but that doesn't mean it's the only statistic of relevance.

Btw, the Shania album I meant was "Come On Over" which didn't hit #1 but has sold more than 20 million copies, which is more than the The Bodyguard. "Double Live" was the album by Garth Brooks that was listed just above it. Whoops.

And "Tapestry" has spent more weeks at #1 than Whitney's debut album, which is the biggest hit Whitney-only Whitney Houston album. Seriously, when half the tracks are by others, it IS disingenuous to call it a "Whitney Houston album."

"Well, that's on you, not me. I said Whitney topped " two of the biggest white rock male acts by scoring more consecutive #1s". It's a well-known fact that she broke both the Bee Gees and The Beatles tied record of 6 consecutive #1s when she scored her 7th. If you didn't know who I was referring to, that's not my problem."

Yeah, my problem to think that you were actually gunning for the actual record holders, like Elvis Presley, whose record she didn't technically break, or even the records of Dan Quinn if you want to include the pre-rock era. Or Alabama, if you want to include non-pop charts (I think it's Alabama for C&W, that's a top-of-my-head guess).

"You said more prodigious output, which insinuates something BEYOND commerciality."

Prodigious (adj.):
1. extraordinary in size, amount, extent, degree, force, etc

"Songs frequently covered or still played on radio."

So, only "I Willl Always Love You" and "I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me)" then.

"Songs the casual fan knows well and enjoys."

Sorry, but no. As much as I personally agree with you, the industry would vehemently disagree. John Q. Public is the LAST person you ask, and I'll tell you why: the casual fan is way more likely to tie to personal memories and attempts to be critical of the song is tantamount to stomping on their childhoods and/or adolescences. Also, they have a frequent tendency to get song/artist pairings wrong. Take it from someone who was in radio and had that happen more times than he can recall. Or even if you won't, take it from reviews of the Broadway success "Jersey Boys" where afterwards, a lot of man-on-the-street feedback remarks stated that they had no idea that the Four Seasons were the group that had recorded a lot of their favorite songs from the '60s. You do NOT bring the casual fan into the equation when discussing what makes a classic.

"Songs held to critical acclaim"

That eliminates "I Will Always Love You"

"and/or are still well-remembered in the public and industry eyes."

Public, again no. Industry, yeah, I'd say that

If still well-remembered by the industry, then yeah.

"Which is why Mariah is primarily known for being a balladeer, right? "

Not even close.

"Whitney also has I Wanna Dance with Somebody, So Emotional, I'm Your Baby Tonight, I'm Every Woman, Queen of the Night, and It's Not Right but It's OK."

But those aren't her stock-in-trade songs.

"You really didn't make any point. You claimed Mariah's legacy is in her danceable numbers, when in fact, she's more revered for her ballads, and cited probably the first Rihanna song that popped into your head."

Actually, "Umbrella" came to mind first, and really, I should have used that one because Mariah for some reason is considered influential in the now widespread practice of having rappers appear on a female diva's song (which goes back to Chaka Khan and even Blondie, which of course was led by Debbie Harry). But no, Mariah's career as a balladeer isn't where most of the respect lies for her. Especially not in recent years.

"Great. Nice, but as I said, NOT ALL SONGS from albums ARE RELEASED. A SINGLE is a RELEASED song. It is NOT an unreleased album track. So what's your point again?"

Your statement here is both correct and non-germane. While a lot of non-single album tracks do indeed become classics, this was not with Whitney. The classics and well-known songs were the singles, which were also part of the albums. But the point was that the singles' chart is probably more important than the albums' chart, at least in some respects. If you can't name the songs from an album, don't laud it. Talk about its historical significance, but not how much you love it. Significantly less chance of that happening with the singles' charts.

"Please tell me what musical impact Milli Vanilli had on music apart from their lipsynching scandal. And Los Del Rio were a ONE-HIT WONDER, HENCE why I said "And as I said, a one-album wonder is more likely to get into the Hall than a one-hit wonder."
Thanks for proving MY point."

Actually, no, you proved mine. The fact that Milli Vanilli DIDN'T have a significant musical impact is the point. If THAT album was the #1 selling album of all-time, you'd still say it was just "a product of its time" or revert to that line about it being "just the masses" BECAUSE they had no significant musical impact. If Tila Tequila's monstrosity had become the #1 album by a solo female artist of all time, you wouldn't tout it as being intensely significant for the music industry or women in the music industry. You'd write it off completely. The only reason you care about the record held by "The Bodyguard" (or "Whitney" if you want) is because it wasn't by a flash-in-the-pan, no-significant-musical-impact artist. That's the only reason it matters to you.

"You agreed that AC wasn't a genre, yet it evolved from a genre? LOL that makes no sense. Make your mind up. And YES, easy listening IS another name for AC. That's why the Adult Contemporary chart used to go by the name of the Easy Listening Chart. That's a FACT."

Easy listening existed as a genre well before it had a chart. In fact, except for possibly disco/dance music, no genre really did. Easy listening dominated the music scene from the '40s to the mid-50's when rock'n'roll began to take over. It even combined with other styles like jazz (think Miles' "cool" era). The reason it didn't get a chart until '61 is because people believed rock'n'roll was going to fade away and it would once again reign supreme. Seriously, they thought rock'n'roll would be replaced with a calypso craze. When the doo-wop (vocal R&B or oldies as it was known at the time) revival of the early '60s gained traction, it was pretty much realized that rock'n'roll wasn't going away, and they started a new chart to keep track of the classic crooners and stars of easy listening. By the end of the sixties, a few things were coming together: artists like the Association, Bread, and the soon-to-appear Carpenters were combining easy listening with the snare-driven backbeat and louder dynamics of rock'n'roll, "Something" by the Beatles had broken through and charted on the Easy Listening charts (which was actually pretty big, considering that Sinatra even called it his favorite "Lennon-McCartney song"... hey, who was correct him, huh?), and most importantly rock'n'roll's first fans were now getting into their 30s, not as receptive to acid, psychedelia, etc., and they began to cross over to the easy listening stations, bringing their still-rooted love of older rock'n'roll with them. Fast-forward later as generations continued to plateau in their tastes, but rock, r&b, etc. continued to evolve, and Adult Contemporary has now become the melting pot or tossed salad that includes various songs from dissimilar genres (the Pussycat Dolls followed by Lonestar?), which minimal resemblance to the original genre of Easy Listening (though you've still got a couple of them around).

"Again, no one cares about what YOU find impressive."

You do, apparently, because you're always so quick to say that.

"The FACT is the industry finds it impressive and NOTEWORTHY, which is why Whitney has been praised and noted FOR what she did for women in music, esp. black women."

The industry can be mistaken, you realize? Just look at the history of Best New Artist Grammy winners. But even so, it is kind of disingenuous to ignore the fact that the playing field was greatly evened by the time she arrived and that she stands on the shoulders of giants who went a long way in making that possible (Donna Summer, Pat Benatar, Chaka Khan, Madonna... yeah I hate Madonna's music, but still...)

"No. MY point was that she influenced entire generations through her singing, nothing of which was ever heard before her."

And this is wrong. You claim she was unique in blending pop and gospel... no. You DO realize that soul music originally WAS pop-gospel, right? Listen to Sam Cooke's work with the Soul Stirrers and then his solo work. The similarities are uncanny. Or the Valentino's "Lookin' For A Love" and then later their "Couldn't Hear Nobody Pray"... yeah the latter is basically an adaptation, but it doesn't sound out of place. It sounds like gospel sounded at the time. Whitney may have been the first to sound like a combo of '80s pop and '80s gospel, and her voice was very different. But that's the extent of her innovation.

"I also said that through her influence, she garnered great commercial success that opened up black artists, female artists, and R&B artists to a bigger field, and that many female artists have been based on her image and style of music. I never said she was the most accomplished. That goes to Aretha Franklin."

Okay, I agree there, even though you don't care what I think.

"Exactly. Whitney scoring more #1s than Mariah out of their first 8 singles isn't important, so why would you think that Mariah scoring more #1s out of their first 10 is?"

I don't really. I brought it up to say it's a matter of perspective (which is what you get when you cherry-pick stats)

"Why would you also think that Mariah is more accomplished for having more #1s and Top 10 Hits, when FAR more accomplished females in music like Aretha don't have anywhere NEAR the number of hits?"

Because the industry does care about things like that. Sorry, but they do, and they keep pretty careful track of it, or at least try to.

I'll get to the last paragraph in my next post. I'm about to get forcefully logged out.

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 05.9.12 @ 15:45pm


"You really need to pay attention and get up to date with music history and understanding of today's industry. Whitney Houston sold 16.5 million PHYSICAL singles in the US, according to the RIAA, more than any other female artist. You'd be incorrect (no surprise there) to assume that it's because of her death, seeing as how singles are now DIGITAL singles these days instead of physical and seeing as how Whitney's numbers are PRE-2004, eight years before her death. Don't assume or dismiss until you know all the facts and understand what they mean. "

I'd say you need to pay better attention in history class, because your perspective is pretty limited. And physical copies is only one perspective. It's not inherently the only one that matters or even necessarily the most important one. There's more to say about that, but it's related more to her getting in the Hall Of Fame and why it hasn't happened yet, and you apparently have no interest in that.

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 05.9.12 @ 15:54pm


Of course Mariah's been incredibly influential. I never said she wasn't. What I said was that Whitney was MORE influential, because she is.

"No it's not, and no I don't have to and wouldn't have."- That's all you've got to say? You might as well have not said anything at all.

"If you can focus on a ten-year segment, of an artist's career, you can focus on a ten-hit singles segment too. But also, who thinks like "most consecutive #1 singles for a solo, black, female performer" either? The more qualifiers you predicate a record upon the more worthless the stat becomes. You may as well be asking "What's the all-time best-selling album by a band consisting of three Italian-Americans and one Dutch-American, that formed while they were in college but didn't break out successfully until three years later?"-

This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard? It's VERY well documented what black artists have had to face in the music industry. It's ONE of the most important things regarding the history of black music, which has had the MOST impact on Western popular music. So for you to compare such a thing to being "Italian American" and "Dutch American" in the music business once again DOWNPLAYS IMPORTANT significance of black artists and their progression.
And sorry, focusing on 10 years of an artist's career is completely different to focusing on 10 singles.

"Whitney doesn't have more pop hits, top 40, top 20, top 10, #1 or weeks at #1 than Mariah. So yes, speaking from those statistics, yes, Mariah has passed Whitney. Whitney has sold more absolute copies, but that doesn't mean it's the only statistic of relevance."-

The only important statistics there are #1 hits and Top 10 hits. As I said before, Mariah has had more #1s than Aretha has had Top 10 hits. Does that make Mariah more accomplished? Absolutely not.

"Btw, the Shania album I meant was "Come On Over" which didn't hit #1 but has sold more than 20 million copies, which is more than the The Bodyguard. "Double Live" was the album by Garth Brooks that was listed just above it. Whoops."-

I already mentioned that Come On Over outsold The Bodyguard in the US, but The Bodyguard outsold it worldwide.

"And "Tapestry" has spent more weeks at #1 than Whitney's debut album, which is the biggest hit Whitney-only Whitney Houston album. Seriously, when half the tracks are by others, it IS disingenuous to call it a "Whitney Houston album"-

You need to let this go. The FACT is The Bodyguard IS a Whitney Houston album. You don't have to LIKE it, but that is EXACTLY what it is. Get over it.

"So, only "I Willl Always Love You" and "I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me)" then"-

For you to make such a claim, you should provide proof of radio play of the songs for the past however many years. But from MY personal experience, far more Whitney songs than those two are played.

"Sorry, but no. As much as I personally agree with you, the industry would vehemently disagree. John Q. Public is the LAST person you ask, and I'll tell you why: the casual fan is way more likely to tie to personal memories and attempts to be critical of the song is tantamount to stomping on their childhoods and/or adolescences. Also, they have a frequent tendency to get song/artist pairings wrong. Take it from someone who was in radio and had that happen more times than he can recall. Or even if you won't, take it from reviews of the Broadway success "Jersey Boys" where afterwards, a lot of man-on-the-street feedback remarks stated that they had no idea that the Four Seasons were the group that had recorded a lot of their favorite songs from the '60s. You do NOT bring the casual fan into the equation when discussing what makes a classic."-

You've proved MY point. The casual fan might not know the name of the BAND, or even the name of the SONG, but that in no way stops them from recognizing it when it's played. And it's the CASUAL fans who make the industry, not just the specific fans.

"That eliminates "I Will Always Love You"_

LOL you're not serious. IWALY received mostly positive reviews.

"Public, again no. Industry, yeah, I'd say that"-

The PUBLIC are just the other side of the coin, so yes, they also matter.

"If still well-remembered by the industry, then yeah."-

Duh....

"Not even close."-

Very close. Spot on, in fact. Mariah is more revered for her BALLADS than her uptempos. She's known for being a balladeer, not an uptempo dance singer. Let's not start rewriting history.

"But those aren't her stock-in-trade songs."-

However, they're JUST as well-known as her ballads.

"Actually, "Umbrella" came to mind first, and really, I should have used that one because Mariah for some reason is considered influential in the now widespread practice of having rappers appear on a female diva's song (which goes back to Chaka Khan and even Blondie, which of course was led by Debbie Harry). But no, Mariah's career as a balladeer isn't where most of the respect lies for her. Especially not in recent years."-

In recent years, Mariah's got more flack than praise for her hip-hop inflection in her music, and her BALLADS in recent years have been more praised than her uptempos, so.....

New post time

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 05.9.12 @ 20:13pm


(cont)
"Your statement here is both correct and non-germane. While a lot of non-single album tracks do indeed become classics, this was not with Whitney. The classics and well-known songs were the singles, which were also part of the albums. But the point was that the singles' chart is probably more important than the albums' chart, at least in some respects. If you can't name the songs from an album, don't laud it. Talk about its historical significance, but not how much you love it. Significantly less chance of that happening with the singles' charts."-

Non-single album tracks are NOT singles. Some might become classics, but they're not singles. You haven't shown or proved anything here. "If you can't name the songs from an album, don't laud it?" Huh? You don't get to tell people what to laud or praise. All you're telling me is that some people struggle with declarative memory.

"Actually, no, you proved mine. The fact that Milli Vanilli DIDN'T have a significant musical impact is the point. If THAT album was the #1 selling album of all-time, you'd still say it was just "a product of its time" or revert to that line about it being "just the masses" BECAUSE they had no significant musical impact. If Tila Tequila's monstrosity had become the #1 album by a solo female artist of all time, you wouldn't tout it as being intensely significant for the music industry or women in the music industry. You'd write it off completely."-

Huh? Milli Vanilli aren't ONE-ALBUM WONDERS, they're ONE-HIT WONDERS. A one-hit wonder is someone/a band that have ONE single that is more respected, more remembered, more influential, and/or more successful than any of their other singles (and even albums). Milli Vanilli are the definition of this. AS I SAID, being a ONE-ALBUM WONDER gives you more chance at getting inducted than being a ONE-HIT WONDER. So how did I prove YOUR point? If Milli Vanilli scored the #1 album of all time, they'd be ONE-ALBUM wonders.

All these "ifs" you've posted....#1- I didn't know you had the power to look into alternate realities and tell me what I WOULD say.
#2- Milli Vanilli DIDN'T have the #1 album of all time, so for you to even create an argument out of something that didn't happen is beyond ridiculous. On top of that, you have NO idea what it I would say if that was the truth, as you don't have the knowledge or insight for something like that AND you have no idea what the musical landscape would be like if they did score the #1 album of all time. But thanks for exposing me to your non-existent cosmic awareness.

"The only reason you care about the record held by "The Bodyguard" (or "Whitney" if you want) is because it wasn't by a flash-in-the-pan, no-significant-musical-impact artist. That's the only reason it matters to you."-

Thanks for TRYING to tell me about myself. Try something else now, like providing receipts for your claims.

"Easy listening existed as a genre well before it had a chart. In fact, except for possibly disco/dance music, no genre really did."-

False. Most genres did.

"Easy listening dominated the music scene from the '40s to the mid-50's when rock'n'roll began to take over. It even combined with other styles like jazz (think Miles' "cool" era). The reason it didn't get a chart until '61 is because people believed rock'n'roll was going to fade away and it would once again reign supreme. Seriously, they thought rock'n'roll would be replaced with a calypso craze. When the doo-wop (vocal R&B or oldies as it was known at the time) revival of the early '60s gained traction, it was pretty much realized that rock'n'roll wasn't going away, and they started a new chart to keep track of the classic crooners and stars of easy listening. By the end of the sixties, a few things were coming together: artists like the Association, Bread, and the soon-to-appear Carpenters were combining easy listening with the snare-driven backbeat and louder dynamics of rock'n'roll, "Something" by the Beatles had broken through and charted on the Easy Listening charts (which was actually pretty big, considering that Sinatra even called it his favorite "Lennon-McCartney song"... hey, who was correct him, huh?), and most importantly rock'n'roll's first fans were now getting into their 30s, not as receptive to acid, psychedelia, etc., and they began to cross over to the easy listening stations, bringing their still-rooted love of older rock'n'roll with them. Fast-forward later as generations continued to plateau in their tastes, but rock, r&b, etc. continued to evolve, and Adult Contemporary has now become the melting pot or tossed salad that includes various songs from dissimilar genres (the Pussycat Dolls followed by Lonestar?), which minimal resemblance to the original genre of Easy Listening (though you've still got a couple of them around)."-

Very nice, but how does any of this disprove the fact that the Adult Contemporary chart used to go by the name of The Easy Listening chart? How does this disprove the fact that you agreed AC wasn't a genre?

"You do, apparently, because you're always so quick to say that."-

So my mentioning that no one cares what you think=I care? LOL what kind of logic....

"The industry can be mistaken, you realize? Just look at the history of Best New Artist Grammy winners. But even so, it is kind of disingenuous to ignore the fact that the playing field was greatly evened by the time she arrived and that she stands on the shoulders of giants who went a long way in making that possible (Donna Summer, Pat Benatar, Chaka Khan, Madonna... yeah I hate Madonna's music, but still...)"-

The Grammys are one of the MANY representations of the industry, so please....
Pat Benatar and Madonna have no connection to Whitney's music or career. There's no link between them. Donna Summer and Chaka Khan, yes, but the playing field was FAR from even. Let's stop rewriting history.

"And this is wrong. You claim she was unique in blending pop and gospel... no. You DO realize that soul music originally WAS pop-gospel, right? Listen to Sam Cooke's work with the Soul Stirrers and then his solo work. The similarities are uncanny. Or the Valentino's "Lookin' For A Love" and then later their "Couldn't Hear Nobody Pray"... yeah the latter is basically an adaptation, but it doesn't sound out of place. It sounds like gospel sounded at the time. Whitney may have been the first to sound like a combo of '80s pop and '80s gospel, and her voice was very different. But that's the extent of her innovation."-

Yes, she blended the two in her SINGING. I didn't say SONGS, I said SINGING. There was NO other singer who sang identical to Whitney BEFORE she arrived on the scene. So it's nice you mentioned all these songs, but I said singing. Ain't the same thing.

"I don't really. I brought it up to say it's a matter of perspective (which is what you get when you cherry-pick stats)"- Sorry, but my stats weren't "cherry-picked". 7 consecutive #1s is a COMPLETE stat, not an overpedantic stat, or a stat picked apart. It's COMPLETE. You, however, cannot say the same. 8 #1s out of 10 singles isn't a complete status. No singer has ever been awarded for scoring an amount of #1 singles out of a total number of singles. Why? It's extremely stupid, unnecessary and anal. But Whitney was awarded for scoring 7 consecutive #1s. Whoops!

"Because the industry does care about things like that. Sorry, but they do, and they keep pretty careful track of it, or at least try to."-

They really don't, because if that was true, Mariah Carey would be more honored and respected than Aretha, but she isn't. It's not about picking apart stats, and it's not even about the stats themselves, but what they stand for. That's why Aretha is so honored, that's why Whitney is so honored, and Mariah in comparison, isn't as honored.

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 05.9.12 @ 20:37pm


P.S.
In your list of artists who Mariah influenced, you listed Destiny's Child, Beyonce and Kelly Rowland separately. That makes no sense. And Keyshia Cole, Aaliyah, Ciara, Monica, Brandy, Jennifer Lopez, Ashanti, Missy Elliott, and Carrie Underwood have not named Mariah as an influence. Unless you've got receipts to prove me wrong, of course. And that means quotes or videos from/of the artists themselves saying that Mariah influenced them.

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 05.9.12 @ 20:51pm


Ok you guys lol
As much as I respect Philip an AHND...this is silly ,,,,Whitney is great , so are many others! As both of you have stated! I am not really sure what all the fuss is all about? lol
please use my name as a direction "Happy"

thank you an have a happy day (smile)

Posted by Happy on Wednesday, 05.9.12 @ 22:42pm


OH! I just saw this now:

"I'd say you need to pay better attention in history class, because your perspective is pretty limited. And physical copies is only one perspective. It's not inherently the only one that matters or even necessarily the most important one. There's more to say about that, but it's related more to her getting in the Hall Of Fame and why it hasn't happened yet, and you apparently have no interest in that."-

Why is it that you like to jump all over the place in regards to your points? You were overpedantic in your Mariah stats and I mentioned Whitney stats I could have brought up, such as the fact that she's sold the most physical singles out of any other female artist. When you replied that you'd dismiss it by saying this was because of her death, you were assuming, and assuming incorrectly. Now you've jumped onto something totally different. I didn't say anything about physical sales being the only "perspective" that matters. Nothing in my post even implied that, so why you're bringing it up.....

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 05.10.12 @ 09:37am


"That's all you've got to say? You might as well have not said anything at all."

You seemed to be insinuating that you know me well enough to know what I'd say. You don't.

"This is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard? It's VERY well documented what black artists have had to face in the music industry. It's ONE of the most important things regarding the history of black music, which has had the MOST impact on Western popular music. So for you to compare such a thing to being "Italian American" and "Dutch American" in the music business once again DOWNPLAYS IMPORTANT significance of black artists and their progression."

No it doesn't. It recognizes the progress that has been over time that by the time Whitney is on the scene, those barriers and hang-ups are fading fast to the point where laying on all those qualifiers makes the record almost worthless.

"And sorry, focusing on 10 years of an artist's career is completely different to focusing on 10 singles."

Not really. It's called a "cross-section"

"The only important statistics there are #1 hits and Top 10 hits."

According to who? You? Please.

"For you to make such a claim, you should provide proof of radio play of the songs for the past however many years. But from MY personal experience, far more Whitney songs than those two are played."

And as someone who worked in a radio station and had to scroll through the library numerous times, I can tell you that those two are two of the three songs we kept in the library. The third was her version of The Star-Spangled Banner, and we only played that on July 4 and September 11 each year. And don't tell me that that's just my station. Radio has been greatly homogenized over the year so that whether it's Clearchannel, Cumulus, or whoever, you're getting pretty much the same thing across the board. I don't know what station you're listening to, but it's pretty much an exception to the rule.

"You've proved MY point. The casual fan might not know the name of the BAND, or even the name of the SONG, but that in no way stops them from recognizing it when it's played. And it's the CASUAL fans who make the industry, not just the specific fans."

No, if they can't associate the song with the artist, it diminishes the memory of the artist. Again, this is what the industry says. Also, the tie-in to specific memories still holds absolutely true.

"LOL you're not serious. IWALY received mostly positive reviews."

Half-joking. It's also one of the most-lampooned songs for its sappy delivery and treacly lyrics. It's only so-so in the end.

"Very close. Spot on, in fact. Mariah is more revered for her BALLADS than her uptempos. She's known for being a balladeer, not an uptempo dance singer. Let's not start rewriting history."

Seems to me you're the one re-writing history. Songs like "We Belong Together" and "Heartbreaker" received quite a bit of praise at the time.

"In recent years, Mariah's got more flack than praise for her hip-hop inflection in her music, and her BALLADS in recent years have been more praised than her uptempos, so....."

So you should take your own advice. Provide receipts. Most of the flack Mariah got was for her movie and its soundtrack. Her status as a sex symbol AND as a pop diva are the one-two punch combo that makes her such an important figure in the music industry to date.

"Non-single album tracks are NOT singles. Some might become classics, but they're not singles. You haven't shown or proved anything here."

Neither have you. As I said, this point has absolutely no bearing on Whitney Houston whatsoever because none of her "classics" weren't also hit singles.

"Huh? You don't get to tell people what to laud or praise. All you're telling me is that some people struggle with declarative memory."

Which is why they shouldn't laud/praise it. To not know a song is there is different from not remembering.

"Huh? Milli Vanilli aren't ONE-ALBUM WONDERS, they're ONE-HIT WONDERS. A one-hit wonder is someone/a band that have ONE single that is more respected, more remembered, more influential, and/or more successful than any of their other singles (and even albums). Milli Vanilli are the definition of this. AS I SAID, being a ONE-ALBUM WONDER gives you more chance at getting inducted than being a ONE-HIT WONDER. So how did I prove YOUR point? If Milli Vanilli scored the #1 album of all time, they'd be ONE-ALBUM wonders"

Flat-out wrong. Milli Vanilli had five top ten hits from this album, three of them went to #1, I believe. They were a one-album wonder.

"#2- Milli Vanilli DIDN'T have the #1 album of all time, so for you to even create an argument out of something that didn't happen is beyond ridiculous. On top of that, you have NO idea what it I would say if that was the truth, as you don't have the knowledge or insight for something like that AND you have no idea what the musical landscape would be like if they did score the #1 album of all time. But thanks for exposing me to your non-existent cosmic awareness."

It's called a "hypothetical situation." I'm sorry you can't grasp that.

"False. Most genres did."

Sorry, that was meant to read "most genres didn't have a chart at the time they came into existence or relevance." Country, jazz, Christian Rock, etc. were all around well-before they had their own charts.

"Very nice, but how does any of this disprove the fact that the Adult Contemporary chart used to go by the name of The Easy Listening chart? How does this disprove the fact that you agreed AC wasn't a genre? "

It doesn't disprove either of those. It explains that the charts were essentially renamed to reflect the acceptance of other non-easy listening genres by a segment of the market.

"Pat Benatar and Madonna have no connection to Whitney's music or career. There's no link between them. Donna Summer and Chaka Khan, yes, but the playing field was FAR from even. Let's stop rewriting history."

Yes they do. Pat and Madge didn't just break down barriers for White women, they broke them down for ALL women. And I'm not re-writing history. There's ample evidence that the playing field was a heck of lot more even by the time Whitney came around.

"Yes, she blended the two in her SINGING. I didn't say SONGS, I said SINGING. There was NO other singer who sang identical to Whitney BEFORE she arrived on the scene. So it's nice you mentioned all these songs, but I said singing. Ain't the same thing."

Yes it is. Sorry, but it is. Pop-gospel = soul, at least at the beginning when soul first emerged. Sam Cooke's smooth crooning style was just as appropriate for standard pop singing as it was for gospel. Bobby Womack's style with the Valentino's was just as much appropriate for pop as it was for gospel. They did it before Whitney.

"Sorry, but my stats weren't "cherry-picked". 7 consecutive #1s is a COMPLETE stat, not an overpedantic stat, or a stat picked apart. It's COMPLETE. You, however, cannot say the same. 8 #1s out of 10 singles isn't a complete status. No singer has ever been awarded for scoring an amount of #1 singles out of a total number of singles. Why? It's extremely stupid, unnecessary and anal. But Whitney was awarded for scoring 7 consecutive #1s. Whoops!"

A stat is as complete as you want it to be. Just because there isn't an award for it doesn't make it incomplete. And sorry, but as I pointed out, Elvis still has more than Whitney.

"They really don't, because if that was true, Mariah Carey would be more honored and respected than Aretha, but she isn't. It's not about picking apart stats, and it's not even about the stats themselves, but what they stand for. That's why Aretha is so honored, that's why Whitney is so honored, and Mariah in comparison, isn't as honored."

You say Mariah isn't honored. I call BS.

"In your list of artists who Mariah influenced, you listed Destiny's Child, Beyonce and Kelly Rowland separately. That makes no sense. And Keyshia Cole, Aaliyah, Ciara, Monica, Brandy, Jennifer Lopez, Ashanti, Missy Elliott, and Carrie Underwood have not named Mariah as an influence. Unless you've got receipts to prove me wrong, of course. And that means quotes or videos from/of the artists themselves saying that Mariah influenced them."

Destiny's Child, Kelly Rowland, and Beyonce are all separate recording entities. She was an influence on DC's music, Kelly's solo career, and Beyonce's solo career. Sometime when I have more time, I'll try to find you quotes though. Ultimately though, there is this... Mariah Carey is both a diva and a sex symbol (the latter of which Whitney wasn't), and throughout the '90s, she was the dominating figure of the music scene, taking the reins from the likes of Madonna (whose music wasn't so diva-ish as a whole). Wherever today's pop divas try to be both, that is Mariah's influence, whether they realize it or not.

"Why is it that you like to jump all over the place in regards to your points? "

Just going with the flow of the argument.

Posted by Philip on Tuesday, 05.15.12 @ 16:52pm


Anyone that says that Whitney is not a diva is a blind fool..
Philip. you need glasses.

Posted by divasmart on Tuesday, 05.15.12 @ 20:33pm


"You seemed to be insinuating that you know me well enough to know what I'd say. You don't."-

No. I was surprised that it was all you had to say. That's why I said what I said. Sometimes it's better to read the actual lines themselves than trying to read between them.

"No it doesn't. It recognizes the progress that has been over time that by the time Whitney is on the scene, those barriers and hang-ups are fading fast to the point where laying on all those qualifiers makes the record almost worthless.-

Says you. Once again, the industry says different. Anyone denying the importance of the progression of black artists in the industry is deluding themselves.

"Not really. It's called a "cross-section"-

No, it's called overpedantic analyzing.

"According to who? You? Please."-

No, the industry, which is why people are usually awarded for their total #1 records or their Top 10 records, not for having 50 Top 100 Records or 2 #1s out of 3 total singers .

"And as someone who worked in a radio station and had to scroll through the library numerous times, I can tell you that those two are two of the three songs we kept in the library. The third was her version of The Star-Spangled Banner, and we only played that on July 4 and September 11 each year. And don't tell me that that's just my station. Radio has been greatly homogenized over the year so that whether it's Clearchannel, Cumulus, or whoever, you're getting pretty much the same thing across the board. I don't know what station you're listening to, but it's pretty much an exception to the rule."-

Again, provide receipts.

"No, if they can't associate the song with the artist, it diminishes the memory of the artist. Again, this is what the industry says. Also, the tie-in to specific memories still holds absolutely true."-

It diminished the memory of the artist's actual NAME, not their work, hence why they remember the SONG (part of the catalogue) and not the name. Please….

"Half-joking. It's also one of the most-lampooned songs for its sappy delivery and treacly lyrics. It's only so-so in the end."-

Many ballads are. That doesn't change the fact that the industry and music critics gave IWALY mostly praise. Titanic is also ridiculed for being a sappy-ass movie. Does it change the fact that it was critically acclaimed upon release and still is so by credible sources and critics? Nope. Same thing with IWALY.

"Seems to me you're the one re-writing history. Songs like "We Belong Together" and "Heartbreaker" received quite a bit of praise at the time."-

We Belong Together is not an UPTEMPO. It's an R&B BALLAD. Whooops! And it received FAR more praise than Heartbreaker. Heartbreaker got mixed reviews at BEST. See? You proved MY point again.

"So you should take your own advice. Provide receipts. Most of the flack Mariah got was for her movie and its soundtrack."-

'"When exactly did Mariah Carey stop singing? Even when she began flirting aggressively with hip-hop in the mid-1990s she was happy to impose her titanic vocals atop even the scrappiest production... Of late though, Ms. Carey has been whispering, as if newly scared of grand gestures."- NY Times on Memoirs of An Imperfect Angel.

"Her vocals, historically among the most memorable in pop music history, are drowned by auto-tune leaving a faceless drone on the chorus. I hope she has indeed settled her score here and on the album Memoirs of an Imperfect Angel she will return to songs worthy of her talent."- Bill Lamb on Obsessed

"What self-respecting artist would have the gall to recycle the Tom Tom Club's 'Genius of Love' (the source of 'Fantasy') for a second time in four years? It's a given that pop will eat itself, but this sort of self-cannibalization should be illegal."- EW on Heartbreaker

"Mariah is back in the adult contemporary camp, no longer trying to prove that she's real. She hasn't completely abandoned hip-hop, but whenever it rears its head on Charmbracelet, it's utterly jarring, whether it's Jay-Z's and Freeway's guest spots on "You Got Me," the club-ready groove of "You Had Your Chance" (built on the same bassline as "Nuthin' But a G Thang"), or the blatant rewrite of Cam'ron's "Oh Boy" on "Boy (I Need You)" (he may endorse it with a cameo, yet the sampled vocal hook remains singularly annoying no matter how it's presented)"- AllMusic on Charmbracelet

"The hip-hop-skewed tracks—"Boy (I Need You)," featuring Cam'ron, and "You Got Me," featuring Freeway and Jay-Z—provide further evidence that Carey should keep her rappers on the remix"- Slant Magazine on Charmbracelet

And that's just SOME of the criticism.

"Her status as a sex symbol AND as a pop diva are the one-two punch combo that makes her such an important figure in the music industry to date"-

That would be all good and true, except for the fact that Mariah has done nothing (or is credited for doing nothing) in regards to female image in the industry. Janet and Madonna are the two cited and praised for what they've done regarding the sexuality of female artists in the business. Mariah not so much.

"Neither have you. As I said, this point has absolutely no bearing on Whitney Houston whatsoever because none of her "classics" weren't also hit singles."-

Great. So if Whitney has nothing to do with this, WHY are you bringing this up again?

"Which is why they shouldn't laud/praise it. To not know a song is there is different from not remembering."-

And again, you don't get to tell people what they should or shouldn't praise. if they remember the CATALOGUE over the artist's NAME, that's not a bad or wrong thing. FAR better than remembering the artist's name and not the catalogue.

"Flat-out wrong. Milli Vanilli had five top ten hits from this album, three of them went to #1, I believe. They were a one-album wonder."-

So why are the SINGLES more remembered than the album? So Milli Vanilli were a FIVE-HIT lip-synching wonder…kay.

"It's called a "hypothetical situation." I'm sorry you can't grasp that."-

That's great. But I deal with FACTS and what HAS HAPPENED, OR IS HAPPENING. Not what COULD HAVE happened, SHOULD have happened, or WOULD have happened. Try it sometime. Maybe then you'll be able to make stronger points.

"It doesn't disprove either of those. It explains that the charts were essentially renamed to reflect the acceptance of other non-easy listening genres by a segment of the market."-

Really? So why did Glen Campbell, Connie Francis, Lesley Gore and The 5th Dimension all score multiple #1s back when it was known as the easy listening charts? And ALL these artists have completely different genres and styles. Whooops.

"Yes they do. Pat and Madge didn't just break down barriers for White women, they broke them down for ALL women. And I'm not re-writing history. There's ample evidence that the playing field was a heck of lot more even by the time Whitney came around."-

LOL wow! So NOW all of a sudden, the progression of women has become important to you. It's just not important when it pertains to Whitney, right? See why I said you were a hypocrite? You continue to prove my points.

"Yes it is. Sorry, but it is. Pop-gospel = soul, at least at the beginning when soul first emerged. Sam Cooke's smooth crooning style was just as appropriate for standard pop singing as it was for gospel. Bobby Womack's style with the Valentino's was just as much appropriate for pop as it was for gospel. They did it before Whitney."-

Uh, no. Blues and gospel= soul. Believe it or not, there are different types of CROONING. Sam was a soul crooner, not a pop crooner. Sam is far more known for melding gospel sound with secular THEMES. So you really haven't proven anything here.

"A stat is as complete as you want it to be. Just because there isn't an award for it doesn't make it incomplete. And sorry, but as I pointed out, Elvis still has more than Whitney"-

Not really, no. That's why singers don't get awarded for having 3#1s out of 4 singles. No singer's gonna get a plaque or praise for that. And yes, it IS incomplete seeing as how the singer is likely to release MORE singles. Then what if the #1s stop and the singer only has 3 #1s out of 20 singles? What then? Oh. See, with Whitney, she scored 7 consecutive #1s in a row, breaking the records of the Beatles and the Bee Gees. She stopped getting consecutive #1s. So her run was COMPLETE. And no one since the has been able to BREAK it. THAT'S the difference.

"You say Mariah isn't honored. I call BS."-

I said Mariah isn't AS honored. Reading is fundamental, kay? Let me post my initial comment again for you (even though all you need to do is scroll up to look at it again). I see it went over your head: "That's why Aretha is so honored, that's why Whitney is so honored, and Mariah in comparison, isn't as honored."

"Destiny's Child, Kelly Rowland, and Beyonce are all separate recording entities. She was an influence on DC's music, Kelly's solo career, and Beyonce's solo career. Sometime when I have more time, I'll try to find you quotes though. Ultimately though, there is this... Mariah Carey is both a diva and a sex symbol (the latter of which Whitney wasn't), and throughout the '90s, she was the dominating figure of the music scene, taking the reins from the likes of Madonna (whose music wasn't so diva-ish as a whole). Wherever today's pop divas try to be both, that is Mariah's influence, whether they realize it or not. "-

Good. Then I can add Destiny's Child to the list of artist's influenced by Whitney, seeing as DC as a whole cited Whitney as a huge influence also.

Whitney was known for being a different kind of sex symbol. She was elegant, classy, didn't need to take her clothes off. Again, part of her DIVA image. As for sexiness, R&B and pop female artists are referencing JANET and MADONNA, not MARIAH. Mariah has NOT been cited as an influence regarding image by those girls. SINGING, yes. MUSIC, yes. IMAGE, no. So try again. Mariah was the dominant figure in the 90s due to SALES and HITS, not for being a pioneer, or for innovation and critical acclaim.

"Just going with the flow of the argument."-

Which is why you continue to bring up things that I never even said and that aren't even relevant to this discussion. Now I call BS.

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 05.16.12 @ 09:54am


"No, the industry, which is why people are usually awarded for their total #1 records or their Top 10 records, not for having 50 Top 100 Records or 2 #1s out of 3 total singers ."

Uh, actually yes, they do award for most Top 20s, Top 40's, Hot 100's. Syndicated radio shows, depending on the broadcast length, keep track of Top 20 and Top 40. They're part of the industry too. Billboard tracks the Hot 100. These are notable parts of the industry as well.

And I am a source of information for the radio thing. I lived it. I was a part of this. I know from personal experience.

"Many ballads are. That doesn't change the fact that the industry and music critics gave IWALY mostly praise. Titanic is also ridiculed for being a sappy-ass movie. Does it change the fact that it was critically acclaimed upon release and still is so by credible sources and critics? Nope. Same thing with IWALY."

Seriously? Titanic still is so? All the credible sources I read now ridicule Titanic as being overblown, badly directed and scripted. They still like Leo, though. IWALY is lauded perhaps for the style Whitney sang or for production values, but the song overall? No.

And have your heard the tempo on "We Belong Together"? It is uptempo. Its tempo is at least 120, maybe even around 140-5.

"That's great. But I deal with FACTS and what HAS HAPPENED, OR IS HAPPENING. Not what COULD HAVE happened, SHOULD have happened, or WOULD have happened. Try it sometime. Maybe then you'll be able to make stronger points."

My points are actually just as strong. You even proved them. By stating that Milli Vanilli brought nothing to the table, you've shown your true colors that you care about the record held because of who holds it and your fandom of her. You wouldn't care about it if it was someone who didn't bring anything to the table but was just a product of its time.

"Really? So why did Glen Campbell, Connie Francis, Lesley Gore and The 5th Dimension all score multiple #1s back when it was known as the easy listening charts? And ALL these artists have completely different genres and styles. Whooops."

They combined easy listening with other styles. Just as you can combine jazz with other styles or blues or folk, so can you with easy listening, which began with the likes of Bing, Perry, Frank, etc.

"Uh, no. Blues and gospel= soul. Believe it or not, there are different types of CROONING. Sam was a soul crooner, not a pop crooner. Sam is far more known for melding gospel sound with secular THEMES. So you really haven't proven anything here."

Wrong. Pop and gospel = soul. You haven't proven anything here either. Blues and gospel both have similar roots. Sam wasn't the only one who did it either. I brought up those artists earlier.

"Not really, no. That's why singers don't get awarded for having 3#1s out of 4 singles. No singer's gonna get a plaque or praise for that. And yes, it IS incomplete seeing as how the singer is likely to release MORE singles. Then what if the #1s stop and the singer only has 3 #1s out of 20 singles? What then? Oh. See, with Whitney, she scored 7 consecutive #1s in a row, breaking the records of the Beatles and the Bee Gees. She stopped getting consecutive #1s. So her run was COMPLETE. And no one since the has been able to BREAK it. THAT'S the difference."

SHE didn't even break it! She didn't break Elvis's record. She may have passed the Beatles and Bee Gees, but she's still behind Elvis. And the stat for most #1's of the first ten (or five, or four) is complete once you have ten (or five, or four) singles. When they talk about an artist on a hot streak, they'll put it in terms of "five of their last six singles have been Top Ten (or #1's, or Top 5)"

"Good. Then I can add Destiny's Child to the list of artist's influenced by Whitney, seeing as DC as a whole cited Whitney as a huge influence also."

I would too. I'd also remember that it's more important to have traces of that artist's influence present in your music. It's easy to say someone influenced you just for the sake of having something nice to say about an artist that you don't really have anything against, but that's a whole different topic altogether.

"Whitney was known for being a different kind of sex symbol. She was elegant, classy, didn't need to take her clothes off."

No... she wasn't a sex symbol. You can be a diva without even being being a sex symbol. She doesn't exude sensuality.

'As for sexiness, R&B and pop female artists are referencing JANET and MADONNA, not MARIAH. Mariah has NOT been cited as an influence regarding image by those girls. SINGING, yes. MUSIC, yes. IMAGE, no. So try again. Mariah was the dominant figure in the 90s due to SALES and HITS, not for being a pioneer, or for innovation and critical acclaim."

Yeah, sales and hits made her dominant and prominent. You can't be that commercially successful and not have some influence. As I said, she took the reins from Madge. And again, you're talking like citation is the only kind of influence. It's not. Who you actually sound like and imitate is actually pretty important too. Mariah was the ultimate amalgamation of sex symbol and singing diva. Those who follow in that tradition follow in the steps of Mariah, whether they cite/recognize it or not. That is influence too.

And divasmart, I never said Whitney wasn't a diva. I said she wasn't a sex symbol, because she wasn't.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 05.19.12 @ 23:17pm


PS

"Which is why you continue to bring up things that I never even said and that aren't even relevant to this discussion. Now I call BS."

I respond to each of your points in turn. The worst you can accuse me of is drawing too many conclusions and finding things important that you don't. Oh woe is me.

Posted by Philip on Saturday, 05.19.12 @ 23:20pm


Now now Philip . I respect your opinions but I think you are going overboard on this! Try to see the good in her .. ? ! That should not be to hard ? lol ,,,, She is , was , will be an icon in music world!

Posted by Happy on Saturday, 05.19.12 @ 23:27pm


"Uh, actually yes, they do award for most Top 20s, Top 40's, Hot 100's. Syndicated radio shows, depending on the broadcast length, keep track of Top 20 and Top 40. They're part of the industry too. Billboard tracks the Hot 100. These are notable parts of the industry as well."-

I'd love for you to give me an examples of ANY artist being awarded for scoring 3 #1s out of 4 total singles. Or for scoring 20 Billboard Hot 100 Hits.



"And I am a source of information for the radio thing. I lived it. I was a part of this. I know from personal experience"-

Sorry, I need RECEIPTS. Hardcore receipts, not your personal testimony, Either provide them or don't make claims at all. You are not a source of info. Sorry.



"Seriously? Titanic still is so? All the credible sources I read now ridicule Titanic as being overblown, badly directed and scripted. They still like Leo, though. IWALY is lauded perhaps for the style Whitney sang or for production values, but the song overall? No."-

All the credible sources you read now ridicule Titanic? Receipts again. And IWALY has ALWAYS been praised for being a great song, even BEFORE Whitney made it, and after her rendition, not only the lyrics and message were praised, but her interpretation and the production. So ooops to you.



"And have your heard the tempo on "We Belong Together"? It is uptempo. Its tempo is at least 120, maybe even around 140-5."-

Are you SERIOUS? We Belong Together is an uptempo? Maybe the REMIX, but not the original. Mariah just has a very free rhythmic feel to her phrasing, as it's an R&B ballad. You're the only person I've seen to ever call it an uptempo. LOL wow.



"My points are actually just as strong." -

Sorry, but stating points about things that could have happened but NEVER do not make your points strong. A million things COULD have happened, like Milli Vanilli making polka music. So? The FACT is they DIDN'T.

"You even proved them. By stating that Milli Vanilli brought nothing to the table, you've shown your true colors that you care about the record held because of who holds it and your fandom of her. You wouldn't care about it if it was someone who didn't bring anything to the table but was just a product of its time."-

LMFAO! There is NO correlation between the FACT that Milli Vanilli did nothing to why I talk about Whitney's Houston's influence. SHE DID something. They did not. FACT. Thanks for the pseudo-psychology, but come better next time. That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things you've said so far. HILARIOUS!

"They combined easy listening with other styles. Just as you can combine jazz with other styles or blues or folk, so can you with easy listening, which began with the likes of Bing, Perry, Frank, etc."-

LOL try again. Easy listening is NOT a genre, it's a niche. Lupe Fiasco has been described as making "easy listening" hip-hop, but the guy is far from having commerciality in his sound. Easy listening is a niche, and is just another name for AC, which is why you can have ALL kinds of styles and genres under the umbrella "AC/Easy Listening".



"Wrong. Pop and gospel = soul. You haven't proven anything here either. Blues and gospel both have similar roots. Sam wasn't the only one who did it either. I brought up those artists earlier. "-

LOL and so what? So because they have similar roots they can't be combined? You're wrong AGAIN. Soul was the combination of jazz/blues rhythm and accompaniment with gospel music. And the sound is both bluesy/gospel BECAUSE the genres share the same roots. This is common knowledge. And as I said, Sam was a SOUL crooner.



"SHE didn't even break it! She didn't break Elvis's record. She may have passed the Beatles and Bee Gees, but she's still behind Elvis."-

Whitney Houston broke the record for the most consecutive #1 singles. Elvis did not. GET over it. B-Sides do not count as separate singles. They never have.

"And the stat for most #1's of the first ten (or five, or four) is complete once you have ten (or five, or four) singles. When they talk about an artist on a hot streak, they'll put it in terms of "five of their last six singles have been Top Ten (or #1's, or Top 5)"-

The stat is complete when the streak gets BROKEN, not whether the singer has released five, seven singles, ten singles, or 45 singles. Whether or not the streak becomes a record depends on if any other artist has gotten a better consecutive streak.



"I would too. I'd also remember that it's more important to have traces of that artist's influence present in your music. It's easy to say someone influenced you just for the sake of having something nice to say about an artist that you don't really have anything against, but that's a whole different topic altogether."-

It's easy to say it, but to disprove an artist's claim is another.
 Next time, before making claims like "Whitney has her thousands, Mariah her tens of thousands", ensure you have the receipts to back it up.


"No… she wasn't a sex symbol. You can be a diva without even being being a sex symbol. She doesn't exude sensuality."-

As I said, Whitney was known for sexuality in a different way. She didn't have to take her clothes off or strip, she performed in a classy, elegant manner. This is another thing she's been noted for. THAT'S her kind fo sensuality. Believe it or not, sexuality/sensuality have different forms/levels. But sure, whatever.



"Yeah, sales and hits made her dominant and prominent. You can't be that commercially successful and not have some influence. As I said, she took the reins from Madge. And again, you're talking like citation is the only kind of influence. It's not. Who you actually sound like and imitate is actually pretty important too." -

Mariah took the reins from Madge in SALES, not in IMAGE. In the 90s, Madonna was STILL the leading lady when it came to the female image in music, both praised and criticized.

And yes, who you sound like and imitate is important, the difference is some artists who sound like other artists may have been singing that way/that style BEFORE those other artists. So that way, it's not influence, it's just circumstance. The artist who was singing that style for a short time period made it big before the artists who has been singing that style for a longer period. Not influence, just circumstance. With citation, you can't go wrong. The only time "sounding like an artist" works regarding influence is if an artist is made in the mold of another (or tried to), like Miki Howard, Wendy Moten and other female R&B artists were made in the Whitney mold, even if they weren't directly and personally influenced by her.

"Mariah was the ultimate amalgamation of sex symbol and singing diva. Those who follow in that tradition follow in the steps of Mariah, whether they cite/recognize it or not. That is influence too."-

Sorry, no she isn't. Mariah Carey has done NOTHING for female sexuality in music. Madonna and Janet are known and praised for it because of the way they owned their sexuality. Mariah acts like a school girl who just discovered that she has boobs. Female sexuality in music has come a long way from that. That's why Madonna and Janet are FAR more praised (or criticized) for it than any other female of the modern era. And the female starlets of today: Britney, Christina, Beyonce, Katy Perry, Gaga etc., they ALL get it from Janet and/or Madonna, not Mariah.

"I respond to each of your points in turn. The worst you can accuse me of is drawing too many conclusions and finding things important that you don't. Oh woe is me."-

The worst I can accuse you of is lying and being a hypocrite, which you once again proved when you suddenly decided the progression of females was important when it came to singers who WEREN'T Whitney (in your case, Pat Benatar and Madonna). You got called out on your hypocrisy and now you've ignored it completely.

Posted by AHND on Sunday, 05.20.12 @ 10:31am


I have to agree AHND on many things thought ,Philip has a few good facts.
Sexy dose not mean you have to be a stripper!
I think some of the most sexy women have most of their clothes more on than off!
If your'e sexy , I mean really sexy , you got it as much or more with clothes on.

Posted by Happy on Sunday, 05.20.12 @ 11:55am


Michael Masser and Linda Creed wrote The Greatest Love Of All and it was originally recorded in 1977 by George Benson for a Muhammad Ali biopic. Whitney Houston's remake was in 1986. There is a part of the song that makes me think of the 1971 song, If You Could Read My Mind by Gordon Lightfoot every time I hear it. I wonder if Masser and Creed intentionally copied it. You have to listen to both of the songs again.

The Greatest Love Of All (1977, 1986)

I decided long ago, never to walk in anyone's shadow
If I fail, If I succeed
At least I live as I believe
No matter what they take from me
They can't take away my dignity
Because the greatest love of all
Is happening to me

If You Could Read My Mind (1971)

I never thought I could feel this way
and I got to say that I just don't get it.
I don't know where we went wrong
but the feelings gone
and I just can't get it back.

Posted by Roy on Thursday, 05.24.12 @ 23:20pm


Not before Dionne Warwick!

Posted by Roy on Monday, 05.28.12 @ 10:45am


Sorry I've been gone. Been working double shifts just about every day the past week or so, and now I'm looking to move at the end of June. I'll get back to this when/if my calendar opens up. Already I see gaping holes in AHND's arguments, but I only have time to say "Sup" and manage a few other things right now.

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 05.30.12 @ 21:23pm


Philip, no one cares about your job or your reasons why you haven't posted. And if what you're saying is true, there's no need for you to announce. Either comment when you have time or don't comment. But all this "I have double shifts" and "I can already spot holes in your argument" only sounds like you trying to convince YOURSELF rather than anyone else.

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 05.31.12 @ 08:28am


AHMD
please try not say mean things to Philip I care about pesple an there well being
lets enjoy this forum an music.

Posted by Happy on Thursday, 05.31.12 @ 09:32am


I'm not being mean. I'm just telling the truth. If you don't have time to post a response, why would you have time to post anything on here? I'm just saying. Makes no sense to me.

Posted by AHND on Friday, 06.1.12 @ 11:42am


Damb, they waited too long. Whiteny and donna summer won't be able to attend and give performances at their induction days! how sad

hurry up and induct dionne warwick before it's too late!

Posted by mikhail on Saturday, 07.7.12 @ 22:25pm


maybe she will get in soon!

Posted by Happy on Sunday, 07.8.12 @ 21:01pm


Just getting back... a few of the grazing points:

"We Belong Together" is uptempo... I didn't say it was a feel-good kind of song... I just said it's uptempo. It is. Determined by beats per minute. "Emotional" is another example.

"LMFAO! There is NO correlation between the FACT that Milli Vanilli did nothing to why I talk about Whitney's Houston's influence. SHE DID something. They did not. FACT. Thanks for the pseudo-psychology, but come better next time. That has got to be one of the most ridiculous things you've said so far. HILARIOUS!"

Yes, she did something. But that doing something from a cold statistical point-of-view is meaningless if the music itself isn't of ARTISTIC merit. That's the distinction I'm drawing. You only care about Whitney's statistical achievement because she also has the artistic merit in the music. If the statistical record was held by a record/artist/song by an album/act/song that didn't also have serious artistic merit, you wouldn't care. How you can't see that's what I'm saying is beyond me.

If "Easy Listening" isn't a genre, than how do you categorize Perry Como, Henry Mancini, Ray Conniff, Ferrante & Teicher, Andy Williams, etc? "Pop" is not a genre. You can't really call them blues, rock, country, R&B, and even jazz would be a bit of a stretch.

Yes, jazz, blues, and gospel all have the same roots, but that does not make your point correct. Basic soul is the secularization of gospel music.

Elvis holds the record for most consecutive #1's, not Whitney. He has 10. 9 if you only count "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" as a single entry. That's still more than Whitney's 7. And that's still less than Dan Quinn's 12, which was well before the Billboard era. And less than Alabama's 20 if other charts are acceptable for admission. That's not being pedantic, that's showing you how much perspective matters.

"As I said, Whitney was known for sexuality in a different way. She didn't have to take her clothes off or strip, she performed in a classy, elegant manner. This is another thing she's been noted for. THAT'S her kind fo sensuality. Believe it or not, sexuality/sensuality have different forms/levels. But sure, whatever."

Elvis didn't take his clothes off in order to become a sex symbol. But he was most definitely one. Performing in a classy, elegant manner doesn't make one a sex symbol. Her voice was sensual, but it wasn't sexual (except maybe on "Baby Tonight". Being a sex symbol means you're widely regarded for your sex appeal, usually in a visual manner, whether or not you take off your clothes. You can be a sex symbol wearing floor length dresses, too.

"Mariah took the reins from Madge in SALES, not in IMAGE. In the 90s, Madonna was STILL the leading lady when it came to the female image in music, both praised and criticized."

Not by the end of the '90s. Even before Britney Spears, Mariah had taken that over.

"The only time "sounding like an artist" works regarding influence is if an artist is made in the mold of another (or tried to), like Miki Howard, Wendy Moten and other female R&B artists were made in the Whitney mold, even if they weren't directly and personally influenced by her."

Disagree. You don't have to copycat an artist to show subtle overtones or even an inflection like an artist. Evoking the image of an artist is a form of influence.

"Sorry, no she isn't. Mariah Carey has done NOTHING for female sexuality in music. Madonna and Janet are known and praised for it because of the way they owned their sexuality. Mariah acts like a school girl who just discovered that she has boobs. Female sexuality in music has come a long way from that. That's why Madonna and Janet are FAR more praised (or criticized) for it than any other female of the modern era. And the female starlets of today: Britney, Christina, Beyonce, Katy Perry, Gaga etc., they ALL get it from Janet and/or Madonna, not Mariah."

Sorry, no. Mariah put the things together first and made it work in a way that made it possible for the startlets of today.

"The worst I can accuse you of is lying and being a hypocrite, which you once again proved when you suddenly decided the progression of females was important when it came to singers who WEREN'T Whitney (in your case, Pat Benatar and Madonna). You got called out on your hypocrisy and now you've ignored it completely. "

Uh no, I said that even if it did matter, Whitney would not be the first, biggest, or most groundbreaking, since others before paved the way.

"If you don't have time to post a response, why would you have time to post anything on here? I'm just saying. Makes no sense to me."

I would think you'd appreciate knowing that I hadn't forgotten you, though I wish I could. There's really no need for your rudeness; we all have things in our real lives going on, and I was giving the courtesy of explaining my circumstances. Sorry you have a problem with that. I'd also hoped you'd be civil enough to wish me the best of luck, but that was clearly not gonna happen.

Posted by Philip on Tuesday, 07.17.12 @ 17:45pm


"We Belong Together" is uptempo... I didn't say it was a feel-good kind of song... I just said it's uptempo. It is. Determined by beats per minute. "Emotional" is another example."-

We Belong Together has a BPM of 70. That's NOT uptempo territory. Again, Mariah's rhythmic delivery is just very dynamic.

"Yes, she did something. But that doing something from a cold statistical point-of-view is meaningless if the music itself isn't of ARTISTIC merit. That's the distinction I'm drawing. You only care about Whitney's statistical achievement because she also has the artistic merit in the music. If the statistical record was held by a record/artist/song by an album/act/song that didn't also have serious artistic merit, you wouldn't care. How you can't see that's what I'm saying is beyond me."-

And what I'M saying is that you're WRONG. You have NO proof of that, seeing as how Whitney Houston is the only artist you've mainly conversed with me about. So you have NOTHING to stand on when making such a point.

"If "Easy Listening" isn't a genre, than how do you categorize Perry Como, Henry Mancini, Ray Conniff, Ferrante & Teicher, Andy Williams, etc? "Pop" is not a genre. You can't really call them blues, rock, country, R&B, and even jazz would be a bit of a stretch."- Traditional pop music. Easy. Pop music is a genre, just not one with its own musical qualities, as it takes from many genres. However, easy listening is a NICHE. It encompasses ALL types of genres and styles. You can have a rock-inspired pop song, a hip-hop influenced pop song. However, easy listening describes the FEEL of the song, not the style of it, hence why a heavy metal-influenced song can be viewed as POP, but not easy listening.

"Yes, jazz, blues, and gospel all have the same roots, but that does not make your point correct. Basic soul is the secularization of gospel music. "- And WHY is it the secularization of gospel music? Because it's the combination of gospel and rhythm and blues, not gospel and pop. And didn't you just say that pop isn't a genre? Make your mind up.

"Elvis holds the record for most consecutive #1's, not Whitney. He has 10. 9 if you only count "Hound Dog" and "Don't Be Cruel" as a single entry. That's still more than Whitney's 7. And that's still less than Dan Quinn's 12, which was well before the Billboard era. And less than Alabama's 20 if other charts are acceptable for admission. That's not being pedantic, that's showing you how much perspective matters."-

OMG….B-sides count as ONE single. They ALWAYS have. They have NEVER been counted as separate entries, because it would make no sense for TWO songs to be at #1. So WHITNEY holds the record. Get over it. But if you wanna go there, all of Whitney's 7 consecutive #1s, except for I Wanna Dance with Somebody and Didn't We Almost Have it All, had a B-Side. the B-Side to Saving All My Love for You was All at Once, How Will I Know's B-Side was Someone for Me, Greatest Love of All's B-Side was Thinking About You, the B-Side to So Emotional was For the Love of You, and the B-Side to Where Do Broken Hearts Go was Where You Are. So Whitney STILL beats Elvis. Yikes! And again, your "perspective" is irrelevant, because, as I stated, singles with a B-Side have ALWAYS counted as ONE entry.

"Elvis didn't take his clothes off in order to become a sex symbol. But he was most definitely one. Performing in a classy, elegant manner doesn't make one a sex symbol. Her voice was sensual, but it wasn't sexual (except maybe on "Baby Tonight". Being a sex symbol means you're widely regarded for your sex appeal, usually in a visual manner, whether or not you take off your clothes. You can be a sex symbol wearing floor length dresses, too."-

But he was a sex symbol because he was VERY sexual in his performance. Whitney was not. She was a gorgeous woman who seduced the audience with her voice and singing, not her antics.

"Not by the end of the '90s. Even before Britney Spears, Mariah had taken that over."-

Uh…no. In fact, she once got criticized by The Chicago Times for having been "transformed from a wannabe Whitney to a wannabe Britney". Mariah Carey has been noted for taking on a sexier image, yes. That's where it ends.

"Disagree. You don't have to copycat an artist to show subtle overtones or even an inflection like an artist. Evoking the image of an artist is a form of influence."-

Who said anything about copying? I didn't. I mean, you JUST affirmed my point. I said "Wendy Moten and other female R&B artists were made in the Whitney mold" and you reply with "evoking the image of an artist is a form of influence." Yeah, thanks. I knew that, which is why I said what I said.

"Sorry, no. Mariah put the things together first and made it work in a way that made it possible for the startlets of today."-

Sorry, she didn't. Many talented female vocalists had sexier images WAY before Mariah. And they had them from the GET-GO. Toni Braxton and En Vogue are CLEAR examples. Mariah didn't do anything new by being sexy. And her having a fabulous voice while being sexy wasn't anything new either. As I said, she's not rated when it comes to the women who truly did something for the female image in music during the modern era, namely Madonna and Janet.

"Uh no, I said that even if it did matter, Whitney would not be the first, biggest, or most groundbreaking, since others before paved the way."-

Uh, no, you didn't. Your exact quote was: "Yes they do. Pat and Madge didn't just break down barriers for White women, they broke them down for ALL women. And I'm not re-writing history. There's ample evidence that the playing field was a heck of lot more even by the time Whitney came around." Funny, I don't see "if it did matter" anywhere in that post.

"I would think you'd appreciate knowing that I hadn't forgotten you, though I wish I could. There's really no need for your rudeness; we all have things in our real lives going on, and I was giving the courtesy of explaining my circumstances. Sorry you have a problem with that. I'd also hoped you'd be civil enough to wish me the best of luck, but that was clearly not gonna happen."-

I really don't care if you remembered me or not. No skin off my back. You're not important to me, nor are you a priority of mine. I'm not being rude, just being blunt and straight to the point. If there are personal things going on in your life, it's no business of mine. And it makes sense for you to deal with them than coming on here explaining it to me.

Posted by AHND on Wednesday, 07.18.12 @ 18:07pm


Oh, and I almost forgot. Donna Summer was an exquisite vocalist with a sexy image. And she was two decades before Mariah Carey.

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 07.19.12 @ 18:59pm


Another thing I noticed. Elvis has NEVER amassed a consecutive string of #1 hits. He's scored a total of 17 #1s, but NONE of them have been in a streak. So HE NEVER held a record WHATSOEVER. I don't know where you got your info, but whoever told you he held the record for consecutive #1s lied.

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 07.26.12 @ 01:36am


Elvis has 10 consecutive #1 hits according to Joel Whitburn's Top Pop Singles book and according to Dick Clark's "Rock, Roll, And Remember" program.

Remember, the following do NOT count against a streak:

-charted B-sides, if the A-side hit #1, then it's a #1 single
-EP tracks that chart. Since EPs are technically not singles, they don't count against a streak
-Christmas hits...not applicable in this case, but worth mentioning anyway
-reissues that chart. Since they're not anything new, but rehashing, it doesn't reflect on the artist's stock.
Elvis had 9 consecutive #1s... Heartbreak Hotel; I Want You, I Need You, I Love You; Don't Be Cruel/Hound Dog; Love Me Tender; Too Much; Jailhouse Rock; All Shook Up; (Let Me Be Your) Teddy Bear; and Don't. All the other hits that occurred in that period of time were either B-sides, EP Tracks, or reissues that RCA bought out from Sun. NONE of those count against the streak. The streak is broken only by "Wear My Ring Around Your Neck".

"We Belong Together" is much faster than 70. The line "Who's gonna talk to me til the sun comes up" alone is two measures of common time. 7, almost 8 beats right there.

"Traditional pop music. Easy. Pop music is a genre, just not one with its own musical qualities, as it takes from many genres. However, easy listening is a NICHE. It encompasses ALL types of genres and styles. You can have a rock-inspired pop song, a hip-hop influenced pop song. However, easy listening describes the FEEL of the song, not the style of it, hence why a heavy metal-influenced song can be viewed as POP, but not easy listening."

You contradict what you said earlier. You yourself said that a genre by definition must have unifying musical qualities. What you and I generally call "pop" is a miscellaneous category, but in the strictest definition... no, pop is NOT a genre.

"And WHY is it the secularization of gospel music? Because it's the combination of gospel and rhythm and blues, not gospel and pop. And didn't you just say that pop isn't a genre? Make your mind up."

Since gospel and R&B have the same roots, what you're doing is calling the commonalities they already share in their roots and calling that the combination. That's like saying since both orange and green have their roots in yellow, combining them would be goldenrod, or something like that. It just doesn't work. And "Pop" for what it's worth, is the catchall phrase used for want of a better term. It's a miscellaneous category, and also a term that people use to describe a watered down version of any kind of genre, e.g. "dance-pop", "Pop-rock", etc. Pop in itself, is not an actual genre.

"But he was a sex symbol because he was VERY sexual in his performance. Whitney was not. She was a gorgeous woman who seduced the audience with her voice and singing, not her antics."

Voice and singing have never been sole criteria for judging a sex symbol. "Sex symbol" almost by its definition, requires a visual nature. And that's where Whitney doesn't make the grade. She wasn't that gorgeous of a woman by most standards and definitions, and she didn't make any effort to be seductive, either in her dress or her composure, or whatever. Sex symbol, she is not.

"Sorry, she didn't. Many talented female vocalists had sexier images WAY before Mariah. And they had them from the GET-GO. Toni Braxton and En Vogue are CLEAR examples."

Neither has had any serious staying power though. Longevity of that image matters when you consider how well something works.

"As I said, she's not rated when it comes to the women who truly did something for the female image in music during the modern era, namely Madonna and Janet."

Maybe, but Janet has also always born the onus of being in her brother's shadow, and many (not me) would argue that her entire career is responsible for riding on the coattails and using her family name. Madonna, on the other hand bears the burden of being untalented and controversial for its own sake, which results in bad art. Remember, I said Mariah was a combination.... and one of those components Madonna did not and still does not have.

"Uh, no, you didn't. Your exact quote was: "Yes they do. Pat and Madge didn't just break down barriers for White women, they broke them down for ALL women. And I'm not re-writing history. There's ample evidence that the playing field was a heck of lot more even by the time Whitney came around." Funny, I don't see "if it did matter" anywhere in that post."

I shouldn't have to explicitly state it; it's implied. I believe I even said a time or two that my almost my whole participation in this has been devil's advocacy. When I jump into an argument, and start breaking down your points, I'm starting on the premise of "even if that were true/it did matter/we accept that premise." If I come flat out and call bull on the premise, then you know that I'm not entertaining your notion at all. And if I agree with the premise altogether, too, I'll say that.

Donna Summer kinda got drowned out by all the production effects and such used in the making of her disco music... plus she dropped out of the spotlight fairly quickly once disco was on the wane.

And you can still be blunt but courteous. You were just rude.

Posted by Philip on Thursday, 07.26.12 @ 16:18pm


We Belong Together BPM listing tinyurl.com/c2zmx2p

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 07.26.12 @ 20:53pm


"Elvis has 10 consecutive #1 hits according to Joel Whitburn's Top Pop Singles book and according to Dick Clark's "Rock, Roll, And Remember" program."-

The 10 consecutive #1s were on the Billboard SALES chart, NOT on the Billboard Hot 100, which is what I've been discussing this entire time, so yeah, WHITNEY still holds the record.

And I made a mistake in my last post. Elvis HAS had a streak of #1 hits on the Hot 100, but they total FIVE, not 10. So once again, Whitney STILL takes him out there.

"We Belong Together" is much faster than 70. The line "Who's gonna talk to me til the sun comes up" alone is two measures of common time. 7, almost 8 beats right there."-

Yeah….it's not faster than 70: //tinyurl.com/c2zmx2p

Have you even HEARD what a BPM of 130 or whatever you said even SOUNDS like? Baby Got Back has a BPM of 130. WBT is nowhere near CLOSE to that!

"You contradict what you said earlier. You yourself said that a genre by definition must have unifying musical qualities. What you and I generally call "pop" is a miscellaneous category, but in the strictest definition... no, pop is NOT a genre."-

I didn't contradict myself at all. Yes, I said "A genre is a category of music in which musical pieces/songs share conventions in regards to musical form". And pop has no inherent qualities of its own. When other genres evolve, pop just takes from them, which is why even though it has its own subgenres, it's still always changing. However, the pop music of 2010 shares musical qualities, like the same way pop music of 1970 shares musical qualities. The difference is that some qualities, instrumentation, effects etc. of 1970 and 2010 are DIFFERENT. And there is a POPULAR SONG FORM. So yes, in the STRICTEST definition, it isn't a genre, but in the broadest definition, it is. The same cannot be said for easy listening.

"Since gospel and R&B have the same roots, what you're doing is calling the commonalities they already share in their roots and calling that the combination. That's like saying since both orange and green have their roots in yellow, combining them would be goldenrod, or something like that. It just doesn't work. And "Pop" for what it's worth, is the catchall phrase used for want of a better term. It's a miscellaneous category, and also a term that people use to describe a watered down version of any kind of genre, e.g. "dance-pop", "Pop-rock", etc. Pop in itself, is not an actual genre."-

What a horrendous analogy. So because two GENRES have the same roots, that means that they cannot be combined to make a new one? LOL so whatever happened to the different use of chords, form, scales instruments etc. That's why R&B and gospel don't sound 100% the same. And BECAUSE they don't sound 100% the same, they CAN be combined to make a new sound.
Yep, pop is a category, an umbrella term (rock is also used as an umbrella term), but it has a FORM. Popular song FORM exists. Easy listening FORM does not.

"Voice and singing have never been sole criteria for judging a sex symbol. "Sex symbol" almost by its definition, requires a visual nature. And that's where Whitney doesn't make the grade. She wasn't that gorgeous of a woman by most standards and definitions, and she didn't make any effort to be seductive, either in her dress or her composure, or whatever. Sex symbol, she is not."-

Where did I say that they did? And where the HELL do you get your information from? Whitney Houston was widely regarded as one of the most beautiful women in the WORLD, and CONSTANTLY made lists of the such. You and your ridiculous assumptions….

"Neither has had any serious staying power though. Longevity of that image matters when you consider how well something works."-

Funny, I don't recall us talking about SALES or LONGEVITY due to iMAGE, but INFLUENCE due to IMAGE. So what you're talking about is completely irrelevant. You said Mariah put sex symbolism and diva singing together first, and she didn't. As I mentioned, Donna Summer, Toni Braxton, En Vogue and others did it before Mariah. So you're wrong.

"Maybe, but Janet has also always born the onus of being in her brother's shadow, and many (not me) would argue that her entire career is responsible for riding on the coattails and using her family name. Madonna, on the other hand bears the burden of being untalented and controversial for its own sake, which results in bad art. Remember, I said Mariah was a combination.... and one of those components Madonna did not and still does not have."-

Why is it that everytime a point of yours get shut down, you resort to talking about something irrelevant? Janet being in Michael's shadow has NOTHING to do with her contribution to the female image in modern music. Zip. So that's not even an argument I'm going to entertain.
And like I said, OTHERS were a combination BEFORE Mariah (e.g. Donna Summer).

"I shouldn't have to explicitly state it; it's implied. I believe I even said a time or two that my almost my whole participation in this has been devil's advocacy. When I jump into an argument, and start breaking down your points, I'm starting on the premise of "even if that were true/it did matter/we accept that premise." If I come flat out and call bull on the premise, then you know that I'm not entertaining your notion at all. And if I agree with the premise altogether, too, I'll say that."-

It's only implied because you got called out. Not ONCE have you broken down any of my points. All you've done is bring up tons of irrelevant stuff, make incorrect and false assumptions, used your own personal feelings about the music as a refutation of fact (like the time I said Bacharach and David composed songs of complex time signatures and melodies and you responded with "Bacharach and David are shlock") and have tried to make broad statements fact (e.g. "I am a source of information for the radio thing"; "Whitney has influenced her thousands, Mariah her tens of thousands"). Oh, and let's not forget your love for "shoulda-woulda-couldas". If that's what you do when you jump into an argument, you should come better than that.

"Donna Summer kinda got drowned out by all the production effects and such used in the making of her disco music... plus she dropped out of the spotlight fairly quickly once disco was on the wane."-

That's why she was still charting singles and albums in the 90s. She "dropped" out the spotlight from her OWN choosing. And that doesn't refute the fact that she was praised for her vocal ability AND was noted for having a sexy image. So again, you ARE STILL WRONG about Mariah being the first to combine the two.

"And you can still be blunt but courteous. You were just rude."-

K. Whatever. My comment still stands. If all your time was taken up, it makes no sense to come on a forum, explaining to people who don't know you WHY you haven't been commenting. Prior to that, nothing I said even implied I cared about your personal life, so if it's rude that I'm reiterating that point, so be it. I feel no type of way about it other than indifferent.

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 07.26.12 @ 20:54pm


"The 10 consecutive #1s were on the Billboard SALES chart, NOT on the Billboard Hot 100, which is what I've been discussing this entire time, so yeah, WHITNEY still holds the record."

That's splitting a fine hair there and you know it. Elvis's streak pre-dated the Hot 100, and since sales play a factor in the configuration, it wouldn't be disingenuous to include the Sales chart (or even the Jukebox or Disc Jockey charts either) history as well. And I reject your premise that you're only discussing the Hot 100.

"I didn't contradict myself at all. Yes, I said "A genre is a category of music in which musical pieces/songs share conventions in regards to musical form". And pop has no inherent qualities of its own. When other genres evolve, pop just takes from them, which is why even though it has its own subgenres, it's still always changing. However, the pop music of 2010 shares musical qualities, like the same way pop music of 1970 shares musical qualities. The difference is that some qualities, instrumentation, effects etc. of 1970 and 2010 are DIFFERENT. And there is a POPULAR SONG FORM. So yes, in the STRICTEST definition, it isn't a genre, but in the broadest definition, it is. The same cannot be said for easy listening."

Simply not true. But thank you for agreeing that by your own yardstick, pop cannot be called a genre. But yes, in a broad definition, easy listening is a genre. It was its own radio format that later expanded to include more popular, rhythmically accented styles, and most of your music shops have an easy listening section. Not the greatest example, but it does show that in a broader definition, it is indeed a genre.

"What a horrendous analogy. So because two GENRES have the same roots, that means that they cannot be combined to make a new one? LOL so whatever happened to the different use of chords, form, scales instruments etc. That's why R&B and gospel don't sound 100% the same. And BECAUSE they don't sound 100% the same, they CAN be combined to make a new sound."

Except it's not really "combining" so much as "sliding down the spectrum". They have too many similarities really. But again, no. Soul is gospel and "pop", however you define it. Sam Cooke was a soul crooner, but that still makes him a soul musician. His style wasn't all that bluesy (except his rendition of "Little Red Rooster"), but you can't say he wasn't soul. Despite your protest, Darlene Love was indeed soul. A lot of Motown didn't sound very bluesy, but to say Motown isn't soul will get you a lot of rude looks. Bluesy-soul is a great type of soul, especially Stax-Volt, but there's soul without being all that bluesy.

"Yep, pop is a category, an umbrella term (rock is also used as an umbrella term), but it has a FORM. Popular song FORM exists. Easy listening FORM does not."

Uh yes it does. There is a form for easy listening.

"Where did I say that they did? And where the HELL do you get your information from? Whitney Houston was widely regarded as one of the most beautiful women in the WORLD, and CONSTANTLY made lists of the such. You and your ridiculous assumptions…."

It's not a ridiculous assumption. She only made the most beautiful people list in People once, in 1991. A one-time appearance does not a sex symbol make. She's listed as one of the 30 most beautiful African-American women in history, but I find that meaningless because race isn't a factor when determining beauty.

"Funny, I don't recall us talking about SALES or LONGEVITY due to iMAGE, but INFLUENCE due to IMAGE. So what you're talking about is completely irrelevant. You said Mariah put sex symbolism and diva singing together first, and she didn't. As I mentioned, Donna Summer, Toni Braxton, En Vogue and others did it before Mariah. So you're wrong."

Sales and longevity DO matter though, because they determine how STRONG the image is and how many people you'll be able to reach, which WILL determine your INFLUENCE. And Donna Summer was a disco diva, not the same kind of diva that I'm discussing. Toni Braxton didn't break out until after Mariah, that's just a fact. And En Vogue was a group. Being a diva almost by definition requires solidarity.

"Why is it that everytime a point of yours get shut down, you resort to talking about something irrelevant? Janet being in Michael's shadow has NOTHING to do with her contribution to the female image in modern music. Zip. So that's not even an argument I'm going to entertain."

If she only got famous because of her name, yes it does matter.

"It's only implied because you got called out. Not ONCE have you broken down any of my points. All you've done is bring up tons of irrelevant stuff, make incorrect and false assumptions, used your own personal feelings about the music as a refutation of fact (like the time I said Bacharach and David composed songs of complex time signatures and melodies and you responded with "Bacharach and David are shlock") and have tried to make broad statements fact (e.g. "I am a source of information for the radio thing"; "Whitney has influenced her thousands, Mariah her tens of thousands"). Oh, and let's not forget your love for "shoulda-woulda-couldas". If that's what you do when you jump into an argument, you should come better than that."

I did break down your Milli Vanilli claim. But no, it's always been implied. Do not give yourself too much credit. I've said before, and I'll say again, much of what I've been saying is devil's advocate. You can't be a hypocrite if you're doing that because you don't claim to necessarily believe it in the first place. That's what I take issue with.

And point-by-point dissection isn't really my style. I often use analogies, as you've no doubt noticed. Analogies are not always 100% congruent, but they are similar in the important places. YOU are the only one who finds them irrelevant. And you do so because your perspective is demonstrated as very narrow. You only care about the Hot 100 streak, ignoring the streak that began before the Hot 100, ignoring music history before Billboard music even began, also ignoring the fact that for many years, country music was the most popular format and genre of music in the country, which if anything means that Alabama's consecutive streak of 20 #1 hits on the country charts is more impressive and more meaningful that Whitney's 7 on the Hot 100. I'm sorry that you don't find me a credible source of information on how the world of radio works. Feel free to call up any station and talk to your own deejays, and see how similar what they say is to what I say. Your limited perspective is also demonstrated in your ability to even imagine different possibilities. Yes, reality is important, but so are the "shoulda-coulda-woulda"s. When you realize those, it opens your mind to be more careful, or to take more chances, or to consider other perspectives and approaches to things in life, and in the music world, those directly impact and influence the direction you take your music and your career. As far as the thousands and ten thousands... okay, Whitney probably did influence more individual artists, but Mariah became the mold for the music industry. She was what the industry bigwigs wanted to find the next one of. She influenced the industry. That's ultimately bigger.

"That's why she was still charting singles and albums in the 90s. She "dropped" out the spotlight from her OWN choosing. And that doesn't refute the fact that she was praised for her vocal ability AND was noted for having a sexy image. So again, you ARE STILL WRONG about Mariah being the first to combine the two."

Charting albums is easier than charting singles, which is the metric I'm using, and her singles, were in the very lower reaches of the chart, save the dance chart, but that's not the Hot 100 which seems to be the only one that matters to you. Sidebar: the dance charts, at least one of them anyway, involves club play, which is dependent on two factors: various remixes by producers and deejays, and club deejay preferences, as opposed to actual club patrons' choices. End of sidebar. With little to no single sales and airplay to match, her disappearance from the spotlight was as much a reality check as it was a conscious choice. And their styles were so different that it's really apples and oranges.

"K. Whatever. My comment still stands. If all your time was taken up, it makes no sense to come on a forum, explaining to people who don't know you WHY you haven't been commenting. Prior to that, nothing I said even implied I cared about your personal life, so if it's rude that I'm reiterating that point, so be it. I feel no type of way about it other than indifferent."

You haven't been involved in many online debates, have you? If you're saying that it makes no sense to take 30 seconds to post a quick note saying that life's gotten hectic, rather than taking 30 minutes to reply in full, than you haven't been debating online long.

Posted by Philip on Sunday, 09.9.12 @ 12:18pm


I am sure we alll agree She should get in...I was reading Phils points on Whitney Houston.Then I read his points on another artist.. I get confussed. He seems to say one thing as a reason they should or shouldn't get in.. and then can says the almost opposite with other artist or artists....?
I guess it is apples and oranges.If you like them then its matter if you don't it may not..I hope we can all get along and she gets in

Posted by Happy on Monday, 09.10.12 @ 15:36pm


"That's splitting a fine hair there and you know it. Elvis's streak pre-dated the Hot 100, and since sales play a factor in the configuration, it wouldn't be disingenuous to include the Sales chart (or even the Jukebox or Disc Jockey charts either) history as well. And I reject your premise that you're only discussing the Hot 100."-

Thanks for proving my point yet again. You just said Elvis's streak pre-dated the Hot 100, which supports what I said. You reject my premise?
LOL that's funny. If Whitney Houston scored 7 consecutive #1s and Elvis was PRE-Billboard Hot 100, why would I be talking the pre-Hot 100 era? Yeah, that makes perfect sense....

"Simply not true. But thank you for agreeing that by your own yardstick, pop cannot be called a genre. But yes, in a broad definition, easy listening is a genre. It was its own radio format that later expanded to include more popular, rhythmically accented styles, and most of your music shops have an easy listening section. Not the greatest example, but it does show that in a broader definition, it is indeed a genre."-

Prove it's "simply not true". Easy listening encompasses a whole range of different styles under one umbrella, it doesn't TAKE on the styles itself. Yes, most music shops have an easy listening section where you can find a broad range of genres, such easy listening HIP-HOP, easy listening JAZZ, easy listening POP, easy listening COUNTRY. Are country, jazz, hip-hop and such not different genres? Methinks they are.

"Except it's not really "combining" so much as "sliding down the spectrum". They have too many similarities really. But again, no. Soul is gospel and "pop", however you define it. Sam Cooke was a soul crooner, but that still makes him a soul musician. His style wasn't all that bluesy (except his rendition of "Little Red Rooster"), but you can't say he wasn't soul. Despite your protest, Darlene Love was indeed soul. A lot of Motown didn't sound very bluesy, but to say Motown isn't soul will get you a lot of rude looks. Bluesy-soul is a great type of soul, especially Stax-Volt, but there's soul without being all that bluesy."-

How can soul be gospel and "pop" if pop isn't a genre? If you're gonna make a point, ensure that it's in line with your other ones. Soul is a combination of gospel and rhythm and blues. This is a FACT.

"Uh yes it does. There is a form for easy listening."-

You're funny.

"It's not a ridiculous assumption. She only made the most beautiful people list in People once, in 1991. A one-time appearance does not a sex symbol make. She's listed as one of the 30 most beautiful African-American women in history, but I find that meaningless because race isn't a factor when determining beauty."-

LOL at you thinking People was the one beauty list Whitney Houston made. Google is your best friend, if you let it.

"Sales and longevity DO matter though, because they determine how STRONG the image is and how many people you'll be able to reach, which WILL determine your INFLUENCE. And Donna Summer was a disco diva, not the same kind of diva that I'm discussing. Toni Braxton didn't break out until after Mariah, that's just a fact. And En Vogue was a group. Being a diva almost by definition requires solidarity."-

But that had NOTHING to do with my original point, therefore it's IRRELEVANT.
In your own words, "I reject your premise that you were talking about a specific type of diva". And Donna being a "disco" diva doesn't really help your point at all. You said "Mariah put the things together first and made it work in a way that made it possible for the startlets of today." And I stated that Donna Summer did that before.
Toni Braxton came out after Mariah, but she ALWAYS had a sexy image. Mariah's sexy image emerged in the late 90s, AFTER Toni had already been established.
Even if that was the case, Donna Summer and Toni Braxton are two clear examples of divas who had great singing voices and sexy images, so Mariah wasn't the first one to combine the two,

"If she only got famous because of her name, yes it does matter."-

But Janet DIDN'T get famous off her name, she got famous of her music. If her claim to fame was her name, she'd have been successful from the get-go, but her first two albums, "Janet Jackson" and "Dream Street" FLOPPED. So once again, Janet being in Michael's shadow has NOTHING to do with her contribution to the female image in modern music.

"I did break down your Milli Vanilli claim. But no, it's always been implied. Do not give yourself too much credit. I've said before, and I'll say again, much of what I've been saying is devil's advocate. You can't be a hypocrite if you're doing that because you don't claim to necessarily believe it in the first place. That's what I take issue with."

No, you've been playing "I've-got-no-valid-point-to-make", "Switcharoo", and "Irrelevance". You in no way broke down my Milli Vanilli claim. You made incorrect assumptions and thought you could support them by playing "Shoulda-Woulda-Coulda". So once again, you are a hypocrite. Your posts testify to that.

"And point-by-point dissection isn't really my style. I often use analogies, as you've no doubt noticed. Analogies are not always 100% congruent, but they are similar in the important places. YOU are the only one who finds them irrelevant. And you do so because your perspective is demonstrated as very narrow. You only care about the Hot 100 streak, ignoring the streak that began before the Hot 100, ignoring music history before Billboard music even began, also ignoring the fact that for many years, country music was the most popular format and genre of music in the country, which if anything means that Alabama's consecutive streak of 20 #1 hits on the country charts is more impressive and more meaningful that Whitney's 7 on the Hot 100. "-

Your analogies are godawful.
I was NEVER talking about the streak BEFORE Billboard. If that was EVER a part of my conversation and my points, I would have mentioned it. YOU mentioned it because YOU had nothing to stand on. You've also created your own history and have belittled the importance of the progression of women in the music industry. So if I were you, I wouldn't start accusing people of having limited perspectives. Even if what you're saying about me is true, I limit my perspectives to what's important and relevant to the discussion at hand. I don't limit my perspective to the things I'd like to see, like you do, nor do I rewrite history to fit my claims, like you do.

"I'm sorry that you don't find me a credible source of information on how the world of radio works. Feel free to call up any station and talk to your own deejays, and see how similar what they say is to what I say. Your limited perspective is also demonstrated in your ability to even imagine different possibilities. Yes, reality is important, but so are the "shoulda-coulda-woulda"s. When you realize those, it opens your mind to be more careful, or to take more chances, or to consider other perspectives and approaches to things in life, and in the music world, those directly impact and influence the direction you take your music and your career."-

I don't need to! There's enough information on the internet regarding the radio spins of artists by YEAR, by DECADE. So you were wrong, whether you cited your credentials or not.
LMAO! Shoulda-woulda-couldas are important? Oh….? You're right. It's important to remember that Viola Davis COULDA won the Oscar for Best Actress, the New England Patriots ALMOST winning the Superbowl this year is also very significant. *rolls eyes*
This is about what has HAPPENED, not the POSSIBILITES, not the POTENTIAL, but what has COME to pass. A legacy is built on what's already THERE, not WHAT COULD HAPPEN. This is about what Whitney's legacy IS, not what is SHOULD have been, WOULD HAVE BEEN, or COULD HAVE BEEN.

"As far as the thousands and ten thousands... okay, Whitney probably did influence more individual artists, but Mariah became the mold for the music industry. She was what the industry bigwigs wanted to find the next one of. She influenced the industry. That's ultimately bigger."-

And you're STILL wrong. In the 80s and 90s, people were constantly looking for the next WHITNEY HOUSTON. Artists were being told to sing like WHITNEY HOUSTON. Artists were told to be like WHITNEY HOUSTON. Artists were molded into the image of WHITNEY HOUSTON. Even NOW, record execs and big industry men like Simon Cowell are always talking about looking for the next WHITNEY HOUSTON. It must be fun for you rewriting history. You should make a book called "Shoulda-Coulda-Woulda Music History".

Posted by AHND on Thursday, 09.13.12 @ 13:42pm


let's face it... WHITNEY HOUSTON..is great.!
Comparing her to this artist or that artist is just silly an means nothing .If she had not make a big contrabution we would not even being talkin..about it.
She stands alone with what she has done .. like all of us..

Posted by Happy on Thursday, 09.13.12 @ 14:56pm


They should've inducted Whitney in 09, YES, she deserves to be inducted. Her voice is second ONLY to Aretha Franklin's.

Posted by Jesiis on Monday, 10.1.12 @ 19:20pm


"And you're STILL wrong. In the 80s and 90s, people were constantly looking for the next WHITNEY HOUSTON. Artists were being told to sing like WHITNEY HOUSTON. Artists were told to be like WHITNEY HOUSTON. Artists were molded into the image of WHITNEY HOUSTON. Even NOW, record execs and big industry men like Simon Cowell are always talking about looking for the next WHITNEY HOUSTON. It must be fun for you rewriting history. You should make a book called "Shoulda-Coulda-Woulda Music History"."

Talk about an overstatement. Your comments have been more augmented than Carey's tits.

Posted by @AHND on Thursday, 12.6.12 @ 17:31pm


"Talk about an overstatement. Your comments have been more augmented than Carey's tits."-

Stacy Lattisaw, Miki Howard, Rachelle Ferrell and many other singers of that time say different. Thanks. Come again.

Posted by AHND on Tuesday, 12.11.12 @ 18:52pm


Speaking of Carey, Tommy Mottola signed her because he was looking for the next Whitney Houston and found that in her.
And, as shown in my last post, other singers have attested to being told to sing/make music/craft their image in the Whitney mold.

Posted by AHND on Tuesday, 12.11.12 @ 18:55pm


Apart from Aretha, Whitney Houston's voice is regarded as a voice of her generation. She is the voice. Her music inspired a lot of young girls to be singers. EVERY singer after her from Mariah Carey, to Celine Dion notes her influence. She deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Its a shame she won't be here to receive this honor in person.

Posted by Sarah on Sunday, 05.19.13 @ 20:49pm


Hell yeah she should be in the Hall. Abba is in there and Whitney is far more deserving.

Posted by Ann on Sunday, 05.19.13 @ 21:00pm


Whitney sang beautifully. Did she write her lyrics?

Creatively - it's a no.

Posted by 808state on Sunday, 05.26.13 @ 15:14pm


You could say that about quite a few inducted acts.

Posted by GFW on Sunday, 05.26.13 @ 15:58pm


Whitney Houston deserves to be in The Rock n Roll Hall of Fame. Her voice is one of the most successful and groundbreaking in the last 40 years. Her voice will be a voice for all time. The last time I checked a VOICE is just as important to a record as a guitar, glaring rhythms and other instruments, cheap shock value and even more important than dance moves and explosions. The human voice is the most recognizable and most intimate things in music. In this case Whitney Houston vocally stands head and shoulders above most. Whitney is also the most awarded female artist of all time. She inspired many vocal aspirants to hone their crafts, many of which have become well known music artists themselves. The woman and her music helped to change the music industry. She was one of the few black artists who broke through MTV's stiff color quota. She made it easier for new, female and a number of black artists to get decent backing for their art. Her success signaled change in the music industry and America itself. Her music career that spanned almost 30 years on record incompasses soul, pop, gospel, adult contemporary and touches of hip hop and jazz. Before she burst onto the scene as a solo artist she polished her craft for years as session singer for popular soul artists. She could sing just about anything including opera. Whitney is even greater than what meets the eye or ear at first notice. She is an experience and interesting study in contrast.


During the heights of her career and there were many during the 1980s and 1990s she had no peer vocally or success wise. Did she beat us upside the head with political, shock or cheap messages in her music...No. Her message was all things involving LOVE and love is everlasting. Her presence was a message within itself for most of her career. Her success and image broke barriers for Women and Blacks. That cannot be overlooked bias and injustice didn't stop by the 1980s. She was a worldwide superstar and voice. Was she an illustrious songwriter...No. However she does have credits as a writer and producer. Furthermore the Hall is also home to many who have done neither. I hope narrow mindedness doesn't keep Whitney Houston out of the Hall of Fame. Regardless of who you are at one point or another you've heard her name, amazing voice or seen her at some point in your life. Her Voice is a soundtrack to American Popular Singing. She still inspires those to dream big and become great from beyond gender, race, music style and country. Her gift was pure and unique. She was a rare artist who appealed to millions of people regardless of status from royalty to Hall of Famers to Legends to everyday people, no matter age, race, gender and musical style. The Hall should be about those who have helped the industry along, brought joy to so many and those who will last.

Some of her record moments as of 2014:

Some of her moments...
1. Most awarded female of all time.
2. The Bodyguard soundtrack sales made her the 1st artist to sell more than a million copies in a single week.
3. Only artist to have 7 consecutive #1 singles.
4. 'Whitney' is the 1st album by a woman to debut at #1.
--The album held the top spot for a then record of 11 consecutive weeks.
5. The first female artist to have 3 albums in the Top 10 simultaneously.
6. Biggest selling single by a female Artist is "I Will Always Love You".
--It held a then record for week at #1 for 14 weeks.
7. Most successful female artist of the 1980s.
--To date ranks 4th among best selling women.
8. Co-produced songs for the best-selling soundtracks of all time, The Bodyguard.
9. Her $100 million deal with Arista was the highest recording contract for a recording artist in 2001.
--To date her contract ranks 2nd largest for a female artist and places in the Top 10 for all artists.
10. Ties 2nd place with The Beatles and Madonna for number of highest selling albums.
11. The Bodyguard makes her the highest album seller for a female artist and ranks best selling soundtrack of all time.
12. First woman to have four #1's from an album.
13. The 1st artist to make the national anthem a Top 10 hit in the US and have it certified platinum.
14. She has the biggest selling Gospel album with 'The Preacher's Wife' soundtrack.
15. Has charted on the American Pop, R&B, Gospel, Adult Contemporary, Dance and Jazz charts with almost 40 American singles.
16. Has sold upwards of 200 million albums & singles worldwide.
17. She has 11 number 1s on the Billboard Hot 100 singles chart.

Posted by Kay on Monday, 02.17.14 @ 13:26pm


Really surprised Whitney Houston hasnt been inducted. She was the total package in beauty,performance, & voice. You ask anybody who listened to her powerful voice & they would be impressed.

Whitney sold over 200 million albums world wide & several platinum albums & 11 #1 hits. Two of her songs acclaimed One Moment In Time & The National Anthem. Influenced popular singers Mariah,(BeyjonceMa)) Beyonce and others . She should be in RRHOF by 2020. KING

Posted by KING on Monday, 05.19.14 @ 15:34pm


Really surprised Whitney Houston hasnt been inducted. She was the total package in beauty,performance, & voice. You ask anybody who listened to her powerful voice & they would be impressed.

Whitney sold over 200 million albums world wide & several platinum albums & 11 #1 hits. Two of her songs acclaimed One Moment In Time & The National Anthem. Influenced popular singers Mariah,(BeyjonceMa)) Beyonce and others . She should be in RRHOF by 2020. KING

Posted by KING on Monday, 05.19.14 @ 15:35pm


@Andrew What kind of comment is that to say Whitney's biggest influence in the last 15 years was "crack is wack". Stop the lies. Look all around on any show which REAL SINGING and no sex bra are required and YOU WILL SEE Whitney's influence around the world. Madonna's biggest influence is having sex with any human and object

Posted by Truth Teller on Sunday, 06.1.14 @ 00:42am


Cissy Houston

Posted by Roy on Thursday, 06.26.14 @ 23:20pm


TruthTeller- let's not get ridiculous now. I certainly don't agree with the other poster./s comments, but there's no need to try (and fail_) to devalue Madonna's influence, impact nd reverence as an artist.

Whitney Houston eventually should get in the Hall- her commercial success aside (which is not a main factor for induction), she much set a blueprint for R&B/pop, much like Madonna did for pop/dance. What hurts some big-voiced "divas," though, is the light, at times syruppy material. Acts like Houston, Carey, Celine Dion, etc. haven't been huge critical hits compared to other acts.

Posted by JR on Monday, 06.30.14 @ 09:55am


Whitney Houston in my opinion should already be in "The Rock And Roll Hall Of Fame", I mean she is the best of the very best. So why isn't she already in there?!! I am sorry but I don't get that and am actually very disappointed Whitney isn't and deeply hurt for her family and fans. Now please hurry and put her in as her true fans and I know she deserves to be in and should already be in any case, and sooo much more for what she gave and the love she showed to the world through her music and movies etc! Let's give it back to this special lady!!:) God bless U Whitney. I loveeeeeeee U. x

Posted by Emma Potter on Sunday, 08.31.14 @ 07:25am


with all the accomplishments and awards there is no one who deserves the honor more than she.She should have been honored before she passed.

Posted by Bonnie Hammond on Thursday, 09.4.14 @ 08:27am


I am not sure if people understand why they induct artists, musicians etc... into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But having hits records and selling hits record, and being a good singer isn't the reason. The person has to have contributed something considered phenomenal to world or music. I do feel she will get in, but I also feel she can wait her turn like many had to... there are many more important artist to be put into the Hall - before Houston. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes 20 years.

Posted by Dennis on Thursday, 11.20.14 @ 21:10pm


I am not sure if people understand why they induct artists, musicians etc... into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. But having hits records and selling hits record, and being a good singer isn't the reason. The person has to have contributed something considered phenomenal to world or music. As some people read wikipedia and wrong think she was a trailblazer - she was not. The path had been carved by Donna Summer - and as far as MTV by Summer and Tina Turner who were the first to have many videos played in heavy rotation. I do feel she will get in, but I also feel she can wait her turn like many had to... there are many more important artist to be put into the Hall - before Houston. I wouldn't be surprised if it takes 20 years.

Posted by Dennis on Thursday, 11.20.14 @ 21:14pm


If you are only judging as to if Whitney will get in based on her drug addiction...Remember. .Stevie Nicks, Aerosmith, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson, Natalie Cole, Okay Osborne, Elton John
Lots of Artists...Randy Travis, George Jones, others, all major artists with drug addictions

Posted by Eric on Sunday, 11.23.14 @ 21:55pm


Whitney is easy listening in the tradition of Barbara Streisand and Barry Manilow. Many hits and lots of fans, but not rock n roll. Therefore, no place in the Hall o' fame.

Posted by Barry on Friday, 12.12.14 @ 08:46am


There's no reason why "The Most Awarded Female Act" should not be included. She has set the standard for so many female singers. She is one of the greatest singers of all time who has set records and broken them. She is an Icon and legend. We will always love her.

Posted by Devron on Wednesday, 01.21.15 @ 12:25pm


Whitney sure could sing and she definitely had the album sales. Where she'll have trouble with the NomCom is that she didn't write her own music. Even her concert performances weren't all that creative.

She could eventually get nominated but it may take a while.

Posted by Marissa on Thursday, 01.22.15 @ 04:24am


Marissa!

Is it a criteria of the induction that an artist has to write her own music? I did not see any such criteria, but maybe I just missed it.

Whether she wrote her music or not, she was definitely an influential artist. Her strength was in her performance/singing that elevated even mediocre songs to legendary status.

IMO Whitney's snub is the most shocking one (along with Janet Jackson's). Hope they put it right soon.

Posted by Suzy on Thursday, 01.22.15 @ 07:17am


It is not a criteria, but it sure doesn't hurt to have written your own music (provided said music is worth a crap).

Posted by Paul in KY on Thursday, 01.22.15 @ 07:27am


I like a lot of different type of music and artists and I appreciate it when someone writes his/her own music because I value creativity. However, in my opinion you can appreciate and value artists from many different angles and reasons and one is not necessarily more important than another. I would not listen to Bob Dylan for his singing abilities and I would not listen to Whitney Houston for her songwriting abilities. They are just different artists with different focuses in their art, but both are important. I mean you can be the best songwriter ever but sometimes I just want to listen to great singing and that we have great singers is not any less important than having great songwriters. Aretha Franklin did not write most of her music either - yet she is in the HOF. Whitney, as a singer, was a very influential one. Just look at all the talent shows - every female singer wants to sing like her.

Posted by Suzy on Thursday, 01.22.15 @ 07:50am


Send Love and hope to the family

Posted by happy on Monday, 02.2.15 @ 13:33pm


its almost impossible to classify someone when they are simply the best their was no gene whitney could not sing...and do it far better with a voice that could be recognized the world over with just a letter

Posted by melvin on Tuesday, 03.17.15 @ 23:12pm


Nobody's perfect!! But with all her accomplishments Whitney deserves our respect and earned the right to be in the rock and roll hall of fame.

Posted by Bonnie on Monday, 07.20.15 @ 00:38am


Nobody's perfect!! But with all her accomplishments Whitney deserves our respect and earned the right to be in the rock and roll hall of fame.

Posted by Bonnie on Monday, 07.20.15 @ 00:38am


Nobody's perfect!! But with all her accomplishments Whitney deserves our respect and earned the right to be in the rock and roll hall of fame.

Posted by Bonnie on Monday, 07.20.15 @ 00:38am


Outside of being the most award female singer in history. Whitney Houston has many musical performances so who have listed her as their musical influence. Whitney's voice was an instrument and she shared it with the world. Even today, Whitney Houston's music and sound is still the VOICE that others try to mimick.

Posted by Sonja B. on Saturday, 08.22.15 @ 14:15pm


Did Whitney Houston write any of her music, or her lyrics?

Posted by Enigmaticus on Sunday, 08.23.15 @ 11:28am


Whitney Houston had an extraordinary voice. There is no question about that. But induction into the Rock & Roll Hall Of Fame should be about consistent excellence. As far as her vocals are concerned, she has that in her favor. As far as influence on numerous artists, she also has that going in her favor. She co-wrote less than 2% of her songs, however. In the 1960's this would have been standard operating procedure, but was it okay in the 1980's?

Posted by Enigmaticus on Sunday, 08.23.15 @ 11:42am


Rock and Roll and Rock are TWO different things. Rock n roll encompasses R&B, blues, and popular music in general. Rock is an offshoot of rock n roll and a separate genre in and of itself. There is an actual Rock Hall of fame. THIS IS NOT IT. With that being said, Whitney was one of the most influential artists of the past 20 years. She did what Aretha COULD NOT which is to bring a black/gospel sound of singing to the pop music forefront by BLENDING the soul of gospel with the pop sensibilities and elegance of Barbra Streisand. In the process she broke lots of record and is the most awarded female artist as well as the 4th highest selling of all time proving just how much she was respected and revered in the music community as well as to millions around the world. She set the standard for pop singing in the late 80's to the 90's and is credited by COUNTLESS artists from the jazzy Anita Baker to pop powerhouses Celine and Mariah to even rock artists like Sebastian Bach site her as influential and, for some of them, even pivitol to breaking down the door for them to even get signed. I'm tired of people, especially those in the rock white community understating her clear influence and acting like Aretha and Tina are the only black women that can influence a generation of singers. Whitney went places that Aretha could not due to her ability to appeal to a variety of audiences. Clive Davis signed plenty of beautiful talented black singers as well as Aretha in the 80's and none of them were able to have the impact Whitney did when it came to making that type of singing so hugely popular that so many pop artists after that wanted to emulate it. And please don't tell me that commercial success has NO weight when it comes to who gets inducted definitely does along with influence. You may not like her voice but don't diminish her obvious influence on the countless singers that wanted to sing/be like her.

Posted by destiny on Monday, 08.24.15 @ 03:05am


The fact that Whitney Houston IS THEE standard in music yet the R&R Hall of Fame HASN'T seen fit to induct her speaks to something deeper. In other words, when you have industry giants such as L.A. Reid or Simon Cowell or [Insert Established Industry Executive Here.] declare an aspiring hopeful is "no Whitney Houston"... THAT'S not INFLUENCE?! Whitney had her OWN exhibit at the Grammy Museum which 1000s of people flocked to see in that crapped vestige.
Perhaps the RRHOF is just out of touch with their Own rationale for doing what they do? Otherwise, NONE if this makes sense. She should've been inducted the Exact same time Madonna was AT LEAST. They Both have FEW "Pop/Rock" Songs...
How Will I Know
I Wanna Dance With Somebody (Who Loves Me)
So Emotional
Queen of The Night
and a couple others...
point is, what valid reasons would the RRHOF be using to keep her out?!? Whitney said it herself, "Our business is Sex, Drugs, and Rock & Roll."

Posted by Snoop Catt on Tuesday, 09.1.15 @ 14:15pm


How small minded some people are. We all have had problems in our lives. If you say you haven't, then lying is a problem for you. Whitney deserves to be in the Hall of Fame. Her voice and talent are unmatched. She went beyond R&B, pop, and rock. She moved peoples spirits. She is truly an icon.

Posted by Dale on Saturday, 10.10.15 @ 12:30pm


I applaud the Whitney Houston fans for flooding this site with yes votes, but if Whitney didn't receive a nomination after her untimely death then she's likely to be waiting a very, very long time.

Posted by Ryan on Monday, 10.19.15 @ 15:46pm


I can't believe Whitney isn't in the Hall of Fame already. The most awarded female artist in history? That's crazy impressive!!! I don't understand all the people being so negative...are they inducting on choices people have made.. or the talent they have? RIP Whitney! I LOVE YOU

Posted by Whitney4Ever on Friday, 10.23.15 @ 13:38pm


Whitney Houston is one of the greatest Artists of our times and should be acknowledged fullyfor her major contributions to the music world. Her spirit lives on through her music and if anyone deserves the honor of being inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, it is her!!!! God bless you Whitney and thank you for the amazing music and talent you shared with us.

Posted by Rob Roder on Tuesday, 11.3.15 @ 22:28pm


Whitney had a powerful voice but her personal demons destroyed it.
She didn't write her own lyrics and contributed very little to the creation of her hits. I think that's what is holding her back from nomination.

Posted by Nick on Wednesday, 12.30.15 @ 08:56am


Please just add Nip's aka Whitney Houston in here. (IMO) Nip's is #theBESTofthebest, so she should be in already, without any questions. #LoveUmybabyandangelofREALWARMPURELOVEforeverandbeyond. :) XO

Posted by Emma1757 on Thursday, 01.7.16 @ 05:36am


Whitney Houston was the Greatest Voice of our time!!! Noone has achieved what she achieved. She is a legend at should be voted in!!!

Posted by Tony Washington on Sunday, 01.17.16 @ 04:31am


Induct Whitney Houston! It is long overdue!

Posted by Cecelia Garvin on Sunday, 01.17.16 @ 17:02pm


I can't imagine her personal life having anything to do with her not being admitted. If that were the case many of these "rock and rollers" wouldn't have a chance in hell. Possibly song writing credits? The question is 'what in the world is rock and roll?' From NWA to the Shirelles to Queen to Brenda Lee I'm confused. Induct Whitney Elizabeth Houston!

Posted by Crystal on Wednesday, 01.20.16 @ 22:14pm


It's time for Whitney Houston to be inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. A legend and icon who transcended many categories, her recognition is long overdue. Hope the next round of inductions (for 2017) will include her.

Posted by Chuck on Friday, 04.8.16 @ 12:08pm


Whitney Houston was NOT a rock n roll artist! Why would she even be considered? May as well induct Judy Garland.

Posted by TomNJ on Wednesday, 04.27.16 @ 13:51pm


Mariah Carey will likely receive a nomination before Whitney Houston. Mariah wrote some of her own lyrics so that's what pushes her ahead here.

Posted by Ryan on Monday, 05.9.16 @ 05:03am


It's unbelievable she has not been inducted yet.

Posted by Nip on Thursday, 07.21.16 @ 15:36pm


You are simply not a hall of fame without her. No question. Her presence in your hall would legitimize it as a Hall of Fame. Without her, you are an empty room.

Posted by Elisa Brasili on Thursday, 07.21.16 @ 22:32pm


Guess that 'empty room' will remain for another year, Elisa.
Whitney ain't getting nominated this year...

Posted by Marissa on Monday, 09.19.16 @ 13:22pm


I like her hopes she gets in.. Having said that Its weird when folks spam her vote a 100x's It's counter productive in my opinion

Posted by Happy on Monday, 10.17.16 @ 21:21pm


Whitney is the first artist Ever to sell a million copies of an album in a week ,I will always love you is the largest selling single in history no other artist has 7 straight number one songs and she's the most awarded Female artist of all time ,she needs ta b there

Posted by Nina on Tuesday, 10.18.16 @ 07:31am


Regardless of what Andrew had to say, she had her problems, but that doesn't take away from her accomplishments. I mean I don't take anything from old wrinkled up Madonna. She is an icon, but I will correct you. So was Whitney. Now check that.

Posted by JFedd on Tuesday, 11.29.16 @ 16:58pm


If Anyone should be inducted into the R&RHOF it has to be Whitney Houston for crying out loud she had the Best Voice in the history of Mankind!!

Posted by Gloria Erol on Monday, 12.5.16 @ 12:58pm


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