Just remember - No American Breed - No Rufus

Posted by Zuzu on Wednesday, 06/28/2017 @ 08:53am

I don't particularly like that line of logic. Just because members of that group went on to bigger, potentially Hall-worthy projects, doesn't automatically make that original effort worthy of induction. It would be wrong to say that the American Breed was influential on Rufus just because Rufus originated from past members of the American Breed. That's not what we or the Hall are talking about when defining an act's "influence." The merits of the group and the music thereof need to be assessed individually without consideration for the cache that certain members' names (or the names of later projects) would go on to have. It's the primary reason I've never been *too* keen on Cream's induction, why I disagreed so much with Bill G. on the issue of the Famous Flames when James Brown as a soloist essentially eclipsed the group's work (and yes, I do include "I Got You", "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag", etc. as solo, despite what the label credit says), why I'm not 100% sold on the Runaways either (especially since I didn't think Joan Jett And The Blackhearts were all that worthy), and why I wanna roll my eyes when someone mentions Generation X for giving us Billy Idol.

Posted by Philip on Wednesday, 06/28/2017 @ 09:32am

How many people from Cream Magazine were involved with nominations? Are you really surprised? Same thing with the Stones being overrated. The Nom Com was part of the business end of music. It came out in the late 70's or early 80's that record sales were falsified to get British artist play time on the radio. I also have my suspicions that Carole King is being shoved down our throats is because of who owns the rights to songs that she wrote as a recording company stable writer. I believe some body will get an income boost out of that one. Funny thing is she is probably the most AC out of all the 70's female artist.

You don't think that American Breed deserves credit for influencing Rufus? Also consider that Hawk Wolinski was in that Garage Band you love to hate, Shadow of Knights, before he joined Rufus.

I'm mostly trying to get people to rethink all the misinformation they fall for:

Rufus wasn't a disco band - not all 70's dance music was disco - Rufus actually had some Rock creds

Chicago artist were interacting and influencing each other in Chicago before they became known nationally

Garage bands were not just a bunch of kids that only knew 3 chords. Garage bands were not a style and it was not a progression to punk. Several garage band members had formal music education. Several garage band members went on to be rock, r&b and blues artists - not punk artist.

Blues, R & B, Rock, Folk and Country artist interacted and collaborated with each other. Several artist from one genre mentored an artist from another genre. Ol Mick's story about Muddy Waters leaves out a lot of what was going on.

Posted by Zuzu on Thursday, 06/29/2017 @ 10:35am

Okay, it looks like you're assuming I'm saying a lot of things that I was not saying. I never said Rufus didn't have rock cred. I don't "love to hate" the Shadows Of Knight... the only thing I've said about them is that I questioned the credibility about a list that places Shadows Of Knight above Them, since SoK only broke through nationally by covering a song from Them, and that that was almost the extent of national acclaim for SoK. Your last two paragraphs don't really speak to anything I was actually saying, either.

I also don't think you can call what the American Breed did for Rufus "influence" exactly either. The members all learned something from their time in the American Breed, cutting their teeth, learning new techniques. And that's fine, and how it should be. But when a new band forms partially from the ashes of that first band, the lessons learned and executed in that first band transferred to the second band... I don't think you can rightly call that "Influence." It's a little disingenuous, at least. Again, not the kind of influence we're talking about in regard to the Hall. I reject the idea that *if* (if, not since, speaking hypothetically) we were to accept that the American Breed influenced Rufus, that any bands influenced by Rufus were ipso facto influenced by the American Breed. That dog don't hunt, in my book.

I've no doubt that Chicago bands inspired other Chicago bands, but honestly, it doesn't add up to a whole lot if their influence doesn't extend beyond Chicago. Just like it wouldn't mean much if the Beatles' were only influential to other Liverpudlian bands.

If you think the Stones were overrated, that's your opinion, but they were influential and they did have an undeniable presence that continues as a legacy to this day. And Carole King is being touted at the grassroots level, not entirely dissimilar to the Janet Jackson campaign. The Hall hasn't nominated her since inducting her as a Non-Performer back in '90. I doubt many would call her more AC than Anne Murray though.

Posted by Philip on Thursday, 06/29/2017 @ 15:47pm

..."why I disagreed so much with Bill G. on the issue of the Famous Flames when James Brown as a soloist essentially eclipsed the group's work (and yes, I do include "I Got You", "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag", etc. as solo, despite what the label credit says)..."
Posted by Philip

That's your opinion...and
, you know what they say about "opinions"...
They're just like noses...everybody has one.
I can't believe that 5 years later, after The Flames were inducted in 2012, you're still talking about this.
I've tried to tell you that James Brown was erroneously credited for songs that The Flames actually wrote, that together,they gave what critics and Rock Historians have stated "The Single GREATEST Rock and Roll Performance EVER Captured on Film"...and STILL you're saying that they were not deserving.Just because The Flames were no longer singing on record,doesn't mean they were just there,twiddling their thumbs.They QUIT, because they were working hard, but only ONE person was getting all of the money.
The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame does NOT agree with you...They know more than you do.Trust me...they made the right decision.
"I Feel Good" and "Papa's Got A Brand New Bag" were written by Famous Flame Johnny Terry. Lloyd Stallworth wrote "Lost Someone". Alone. It was a million-seller. Bobby Byrd wrote a LOT of songs wrongly credited solely to James Brown...and is one of the unsung Fathers of Funk.Bobby Bennett co-wrote several tunes too.
THREE TIMES , Bobby Byrd left James Brown, because he didn't feel that he was being properly compensated..and THREE TIMES, James asked him to come back.And, after he got out of prison, James requested that ALL of The Flames return...but they refused. That should tell you something.
Why don't you just accept that The Famous Flames are inducted,and that they deserved to be... and move on.
Life will go better for you.

Posted by Bill G on Saturday, 07/1/2017 @ 01:21am

Dude, Bill G., you're more worked up about this than I was. I was just using it as a frame of reference, a similar example. It was one of four examples I used, and you jumped on this like it was the crux of what I was saying. I compared it to Cream, the Runaways, and Generation X, all to make a point regarding the American Breed.

I'm fine that the Famous Flames were inducted--James Brown as a solo artist was technically ineligible when he was inducted; honestly, if you'd led with that argument instead of saying "James Brown, ipso facto the Famous Flames," I'd have shrugged and said, "Okay, I guess." My point was I didn't accept them as being worthy simply because they launched James Brown's career, which was a point you kept ramming down my throat... that if it hadn't been for the Famous Flames, James Brown wouldn't have been a household name, ergo the Famous Flames were more deserving than Brown as a soloist. Brown as a soloist was Brown as a soloist, and the Famous Flames don't get to claim merit for that. Their work as a group is what should have been the only thing considered. And their Live At The Apollo album is the clincher for their merit as a group. And that's cool. But again, I mentioned it here merely as a reference point, and it isn't the button for me that it clearly is for you. Why don't you take your own advice and rest comfortably with the fact that the Famous Flames are inducted and stop trying to tilt every windmill that doesn't laud it as wholeheartedly as the induction of the O'Jays or Sly And The Family Stone?
Life will go better for you as well.

Posted by Philip on Sunday, 07/2/2017 @ 02:04am

Philip

I was giving insight to my statement.

Grassroot movement??? - vet your sources - you may be surprised by how many of the people out there are or were part of the non-com or non-com hand picked voting members

Think of the Stones in the right category (British Invasion) and you might get what I am talking about

AC vs Rock - Anne Murray is listed as Country

Vet nom com members - check their age for the period - mid twenties is when a person goes more for AC- they are or were involved with the business end - What they push is actually corporate and not what you think

American Breed's first record was a song written by Geffen King - it flopped - does that indicated they were no longer cutting edge?

You are not culturally grounded enough to know what age group was into which artist -n it is not just music style but also about our values and what were important subjects.

Don't go by what nom com says - look at what the artist say - especially check out Melanie and Janis Ian to see the type of garbage these guys pulled and how much control they had

That poll was about FAVORITE - everyone is entitled to their own tastes and the person who runs the site does get info from the artists themselves - you might find some interesting info from an alternate point of view

Chicago was one of the finalist for hall location
counting individuals that are from Chicago or spent a significant amount of time here you have several hundred in this time period.

I was talking about having influence already before being known on a larger scale but there are a few that were not known beyond local

Steve Goodman -okay he is known internationally by artist

The Exceptions - this will take tons of research - they are like a spider at the center of a web - their spin-off Aorta is credited with the first Christian rock but the Exceptiond did do Rock and Roll Mass

M & R Rush - they did open for and shared the stage with some big names - check out their website

Aliotta Haynes Jeremiah - Lake Shore Drive was a regional hit in several states - Fuzzy TV has a video of them performing other songs - Chicago's sphere of influence covers a population that is roughly the same size as Britain - I have seen support for several one hit wonders saying but there were big in England - So if that counts shouldn't same hold for Greater Chicagoland?

Herb Kent - the DJ who coined the term Dusties - look up his acheivements

Posted by Zuzu on Friday, 07/7/2017 @ 11:12am

Well that's one way to kill a conversation. Send it spiralling in multiple directions with vagueness in most of them, so that no one has any clue what you're trying to say.

Anne Murray was as much MOR as she was country. Described as "country-pop" at a time when the two worlds of country and MOR had about as much overlap as they ever had, it's about as fitting to call her one as the other.

Okay, so the poll is purely subjective, and really has no credibility.

And holy crap, no, "Greater Chicagoland" is not equivocal to the entire country of the United Kingdom. If that really requires an explanation, it's not worth giving one. Chicago may have been crucial in the American railway system, but that doesn't mean all roads lead to it.

Posted by Philip on Friday, 07/7/2017 @ 22:24pm

Kevin Cronin on Gary Loizzo

anuary 20, 2016

Musically, Glenn and Don Henley created a sound that hit the spot for me…jangly guitars, sweet vocal harmonies, but most importantly well written pop songs. I grew up loving The Byrds, Buffalo Springfield, Crosby, Stills & Nash, and The Eagles were the natural progression of that genre. But when Tommy Shaw told me that our friend Gary Loizzo had finally been taken down after a three year battle with Pancreatic cancer, that rocked my world deeply. Gary had been the front of house sound engineer for Styx and engineered or co-produced many of their records since the early days of the band. Before that Gary gained fame as lead singer ofThe American Breed whose number one single, “Bend Me Shape Me” topped the WLS radio Silver Dollar Survey chart in the early 60s. His sweet clear tenor was a big part of that record’s appeal and landed Gary in the heart of the lucrative Chicago jingle singing world, as well as allowed him to open Pumpkin Studios in suburban Oak Lawn.

Oak Lawn was also home to a young and naive singer songwriter who was searching to be discovered, (me). Gary brought me into his little four track garage studio where we arranged and recorded the earliest versions of future REO classics such as “Time For Me To Fly”, “Keep Pushin’ On”, “In My Dreams”, and “Can’t Fight This Feeling”. Gary taught me about stacking vocal harmonies, doubling guitar parts, and song arrangement, and was a stabilizing force for my emotional approach to writing and recording. We balanced each other out. When I hit a creative wall during the vocal sessions for ‘You Can Tuna Piano, but You Can’t Tune a Fish’, I hopped a plane for sweet home Chicago and went into the studio with a producer who always calmed and grounded me…Gary Loizzo.

But even before that, when I was 11 years old I saw Gary and The Nightlights play a short set as the finale of my next door neighbor’s accordion recital. I had just started taking guitar lesson and Gary made a mighty impression on me. Soon after that the Beatles came to America and my life course was set, but it was Gary Loizzo who made the initial rock’n roll mark on me. I am sick that I will be in New Zealand and will not be able to be at Gary’s service.

http://reospeedwagon.com/a-note-from-kevin-cronin/

Gary Loizzo also worked with Liza Minnelli, Jim Peterik of the Ides of March and Survivor, Bad Company, Slash, and Tenacious D, Nelson,

Posted by Zuzu on Sunday, 11/12/2017 @ 06:17am

A PBS special that disputes misinformation put out there on the importance of Chicago and its radio stations.

How Chicago Rocked the 60s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J3p-lqKYu2g

Posted by Zuzu on Sunday, 02/11/2018 @ 18:32pm

Thanks Zuzu, that was an interesting program to watch. There are a couple of good nuggets of information to bolster your claims; however, it is weighed down heavily by a lot of the rest of it.

First off, it's not a PBS production. It's a WTTW production. Not quite the same. They probably used a good chunk of the money that they received from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting to put it together, but it was a local production episode for a local program... in other words, for local exhibition only. Not the same as being produced by multiple stations (like "Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego"), or by a company like the Children's Television Workshop. Point being, the bias is flagrant from the outset.

Second, it would have been more accurately named "How Chicago Rocked DURING The LATE '60's." It was more about the local scenes for the local teens during the '60's. And even then, it was about the late '60's, not the entire decade.

Third, the special did mention that Chicago superstations could be heard across the country, but it was pretty vague as to what that meant. Could you literally pick up those stations on the Pacific coast? Or all the way down in Key West? Secondly, just because those stations could be heard in remote markets doesn't mean those stations dominated those remote markets. You need ratings information to prove that the Chicago stations were truly that important. Market presence is not the same as market share.

Fourth, the presentation discusses in greater length the influences that saturated Chicago rather than how Chicago influenced the nation. The Buckinghams chose their name because it sounded British, how the Shadows Of Knight (another name chosen to appear British) worked to emulate the Stones, and how it was the wisdom of Mick Jagger about being in Chicago, which while amusing isn't quite true, as the Beach Boys and the Four Seasons, from opposing coasts, both became huge national smashes from coast to coast.

Fifth, most of the acts mentioned are regarded as "one-hit" or even "no-hit" wonders. Some of them had a couple other small hits, but only one that has stood the test of time. And quite frankly, a lot of major cities had the same thing going on.

Sixth, because it's produced by Chicagoans about Chicagoans for Chicagoans, it intentionally neglects things like the festivals in Monterrey and Woodstock. If the documentary was about rock and roll in the sixties, even just the mid-to-late sixties, San Francisco, New York, and maybe even Detroit (because of Motown) would get more focus than Chicago.

Seventh, the Del-Vikings were a racially integrated rock and roll group almost a decade before the American Breed. Of course, you don't consider doo-wop to be part of rock and roll, but that's really your problem, not mine.

Eighth, even they said "Oldies stations."

Ninth, even Chicago couldn't break big until they went to the West Coast. Straight from their lips.

Now, the one point that actually still sticks quite importantly, was the point that most record companies were still headquartered in Chicago. Chess was a major record label, but by the late '60's, they appeared to be dwindling. I do wonder how many of them are actual HQs, and not regional offices. Still, that's an interesting point that merits further investigation.

Great viewing though.

Posted by Philip on Sunday, 02/11/2018 @ 23:19pm

https://radioink.com/2017/08/21/greatest-top-40-stations-time/


Lee Abrams 4 WLS 20 WCFL

Randy Michaels

lists WLS at 12 and says it is the most influential from the late 60s to the early 70s.

Posted by Zuzu on Sunday, 09/9/2018 @ 21:04pm